Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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Hard Brexit is dead as it simply won't get through either House, so at least May achieved something during her tenure by calling a completely unnecessary GE and then blowing a 20 point lead.
 
Right, I'm back.

Here goes. I'll try to keep this as brief as possible, but it may require some detailed explanations, so bear with me please. Please understand these are my personal views, and enshrined within them are my opinions, which is a singular thing, and I cannot claim it applies to the broad mass of people.

I was in my twenties in the 1970s when the issue of joining the Common Market finally came into focus. We had tried to join on several occasions, but de Gaulle had always said 'Non!'. At the time, it was sold to us as being a trading agreement that would facilitate all manner of trade between those in the Common Market. Note: at that time there was no mention of a common European currency, no mention of any kind of European State machinery that would have precedence over individual State's legislation or judiciary, no mention of 'free movement' of peoples (the hot topis of 'immigration', as it is now known), nor of a unified European army. The vote to join was carried, and we were in.

Over time, this 'market' began to morph into something quite different to what we were originally told in the 1970s. As the 'empire building' continued within the central base of what I will now call the EU (for convenience sake), I began to see more and more dictation from the EU in legal matters. Some may be seen as beneficial on the whole; others fly in the face of what was currently the law in this country. Having worked on the legal side of things in the Government Department I worked in, I was seeing legislation being passed that was in direction contradiction to what was presently on the statute book. The EU was telling us how we should conduct our affairs in certain areas of our Government business. I was (one might say 'we were') also seeing EU interference in the judicial system of this country. Notwithstanding the fact that the appellate process is a necessary, indeed obligatory, mechanism within the whole system in this country, I was seeing ruling by our Judges being overturned by a central European body. This harks back to the point I made in my previous paragraph: "...no mention of any kind of European State machinery that would have precedence over individual State's legislation or judiciary...". That was of some concern to me then, as it still is now. So, over time, we were subjected to the double-edged sword of the EU dictating to the UK in matters of Legislature and Judiciary. I do not believe that should ever have happened, but as we know the EU has grown and expanded over the decades taking in many things within its remit that were not there when the question was put to us in the 1970s. And having a role to play in certain matters that rendered us 'impotent' (for want of a better word) - the Port Talbot steel works for one (having to ask permission of the EU regarding any financial help) and the EU grant of a loan to help Ford move some of its work from the UK to Turkey another. Is this the future? We lose control of certain matters, or have to go cap-in-hand requesting permission from the EU state to do certain things?

As for immigration, well I am in no position to pontificate about that, given my southern European surname, and being a Scouser, three generations back via census records and you are into a very strong influx of Irish to Liverpool during the middle half of the 19th century. My simple take on immigration is that it needs to be sensibly managed. Not open door, not shut door (both extremes are equally invalid, in my view).

European Army. It has been a topic in the media for quite some time. A unified European army to represent/protect the interest of the EU member states. Many have poo-pooed the idea, saying we are almost there already anyway, in that concerted action is always being undertaken, and there is some merit in that point. However, should the independent military scenario of the UK be 100% subsumed to European military, or European bureaucrats whose vested interests may lie only with their own country and not that of the UK? That might sound jingoistic, but one must look at how it would transpire in real terms if taken to its logical conclusion.

So, 25, I weighed everything up that had transpired over the decades, looked at how things were shaping now, and projected how they would shape in the future, and came to the singular conclusion that I believed the UK would be better out of the EU in order to determine its future path without the constraints placed upon it by the EU machinery.

I've re-read through this whole psot and see it is quite lengthy, but I hope it gives you a better idea of why just one person decided to vote leave. Both campaigns left me cold - posturing on both sides by big political names given a free role for once, and 'expert' economists spouting doom and glooom at every opportunity (when have they EVER actually got it right???).

I would welcome your further comments on the above, 25.

More of these posts mate and less of the anger and you're on to a winner. Great post. Disagree with it mind, but still a great post.
 
Hard Brexit is dead as it simply won't get through either House, so at least May achieved something during her tenure by calling a completely unnecessary GE and then blowing a 20 point lead.
Hard - soft - boiled all terminology remoaners have come out with - Brexit means we will leave the EU and take back control of our borders and the other three freedoms will go but a new deal will be struck that is cheaper that our 8 Billion deficit of current membership cost, and we can trade worldwide access to the single market is not the same as rejoining it - there will be a transitional arrangements as it suits us, and the EU - the only difference now is there is no walk away if we do not like the deal , but that was smoke and mirrors negotiating plots - both side retric was hostile at first, it thankfully seems to have calmed down!
 
I feel we're going round in circles Joe, but I've told you already that I feel controlling immigration is wrong, and I've shown you clear evidence that uncontrolled immigration is not only better economically and socially, but also has no impact on crime levels. It would be nice if you could return with something similar to back up your assertion other than 'other countries do it'.

No Bruce you continue to ignore other countries have far better border control, USA , Canada , New Zealand, Australia etc etc they deem to get better control, and still have an immigration policy - not what you like a free for all!
If I was young I would feel more secure filling the visa work permits in for my family to move to my new country of origin than what is in place now as it would give you a piece of paper showing that I had rights to be there with my family - than the loose arrangements the great EU have established when one country like us votes out!
Bruce it was TWO of the 27 countries in the EU who refused to allow the EU citizens of approximately 4 million to get immunity from having the right to stay here or in EU countries because of their stupid democracy that if one vetoes one thing its quashed two were so awkward - you wonder why 17 million voted out on that democrocy you so love!
they wanted it as a bargaining chip in the initial negotiations - May tried her best to get a bilateral agreement! to get 27 countries to agree on one issue is ridiculous - good riddance to that system when we leave!
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-rights-full-eu-theresa-may-brexit-referendum
 
No Bruce you continue to ignore other countries have far better border control, USA , Canada , New Zealand, Australia etc etc they deem to get better control, and still have an immigration policy - not what you like a free for all!

I'll try again. Why is there system better (and please don't say it's because they have control)?
 
Tories aim to block full EU ban on bee-harming pesticides
Move to block EU ban comes despite environment secretary Michael Gove saying, ‘I don’t want to water down’ EU protections


Conservative politicians are trying to stop a complete EU ban on bee-harming pesticides, despite the new environment secretary Michael Gove’s statement earlier this week, in which he said “I absolutely don’t want to water down” EU environmental protections.

Neonicotinoids are the world’s most widely used insecticides but have been banned on flowering crops in the EU since 2013. However, the European Food Safety Authority (Efsa) found in 2016 that use of the pesticides on all crops poses a high risk to bees. As a result, the European commission has proposed a ban on all uses outside greenhouses, first revealed by the Guardian in March.

On Thursday, an attempt by the Conservative MEP Julie Girling to block the full ban will be voted on by the European parliament’s environment committee. Most of the UK’s environmental protections derive from the EU and since the Brexit result many green groups have been concerned that these could be weakened after Britain leaves the EU.

Gove gave reassurances on Monday, telling BBC Farming Today: “We need to maintain, and where possible enhance, environmental and animal welfare standards. We have a strong position and good track record in both of those areas and I do not for a moment want to see either of them diluted or eroded.”

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-aim-block-full-eu-ban-bee-harming-pesticides
 
Hard Brexit is dead as it simply won't get through either House, so at least May achieved something during her tenure by calling a completely unnecessary GE and then blowing a 20 point lead.

It is probably going to cost the UK government more than the £4.3 billion it costs them now to belong to the club.

European Union Finances 2015: statement on the 2015 EU Budget and measures to counter fraud and financial mismanagement

The figure includes a thing called TOR. TOR - Traditional Own Resources payments - which is another word for custom duties/tariffs imposed on goods imported into the EU- TOR payments at 75 per cent to the EU. The remaining 25 per cent is retained by the UK to cover the costs of administering collection on behalf of the EU. This amounts £2.4 billion to the EU and the UK keeps £800 million. As this is paid by those exporting into the UK it is not an expense on the UK.

In 2015 the figure was £17.7 billion which includes £3.2 (TOR payment) = £14.5 billion includes VAT payment of £2.5 billion.

The UK gets a rebate - "the estimated value of the UK’s rebate in 2015 is €5.6 billion (£4.4 billion)" £14.5 billion - £4.4 billion = £10.1 billion including VAT.

The UK also receives this money,

"UK public sector receipts in 2015, mainly from the European Agricultural Guarantee (EAGF), European Agricultural Fund for Rural Development (EAFRD) and the Social and Regional Development Funds, are expected to be around £4.4 billion. The majority of these receipts will either be paid to, or used in support of, the private sector but are channelled through government departments or agencies".

£10.1 billion minus this £4.4 billion= £5.7 billion.

The UK also receives, "The EU makes some payments directly to the private sector, for example to carry out research activities. These payments do not appear in the public sector’s accounts. It is estimated that in 2013, these receipts were worth £1.4 billion. These payments are not included in Tables 3.A or 3.C-F, which provide data on public sector receipts only.

So that is £5.7 billion minus £1.4 billion = £4.3 billion includes VAT.

The cost of the UK being in the EU is £4.3 billion which includes £2.5 billion VAT. It never cost anywhere near the amount bandied around.
 
It is probably going to cost the UK government more than the £4.3 billion it costs them now to belong to the club.

European Union Finances 2015: statement on the 2015 EU Budget and measures to counter fraud and financial mismanagement

The figure includes a thing called TOR. TOR - Traditional Own Resources payments - which is another word for custom duties/tariffs imposed on goods imported into the EU- TOR payments at 75 per cent to the EU. The remaining 25 per cent is retained by the UK to cover the costs of administering collection on behalf of the EU. This amounts £2.4 billion to the EU and the UK keeps £800 million. As this is paid by those exporting into the UK it is not an expense on the UK.

In 2015 the figure was £17.7 billion which includes £3.2 (TOR payment) = £14.5 billion includes VAT payment of £2.5 billion.

The UK gets a rebate - "the estimated value of the UK’s rebate in 2015 is €5.6 billion (£4.4 billion)" £14.5 billion - £4.4 billion = £10.1 billion including VAT.

The UK also receives this money,

"UK public sector receipts in 2015, mainly from the European Agricultural Guarantee (EAGF), European Agricultural Fund for Rural Development (EAFRD) and the Social and Regional Development Funds, are expected to be around £4.4 billion. The majority of these receipts will either be paid to, or used in support of, the private sector but are channelled through government departments or agencies".

£10.1 billion minus this £4.4 billion= £5.7 billion.

The UK also receives, "The EU makes some payments directly to the private sector, for example to carry out research activities. These payments do not appear in the public sector’s accounts. It is estimated that in 2013, these receipts were worth £1.4 billion. These payments are not included in Tables 3.A or 3.C-F, which provide data on public sector receipts only.

So that is £5.7 billion minus £1.4 billion = £4.3 billion includes VAT.

The cost of the UK being in the EU is £4.3 billion which includes £2.5 billion VAT. It never cost anywhere near the amount bandied around.
Are you at the negotiation table as you post - David Davies had to agree on with a divorce settlement to move negotiations along - he did the quote - that's something we can go back to when we gain access to the single market it will cost but not a nett loss of over 8 billion every year!
 
Tories aim to block full EU ban on bee-harming pesticides
Move to block EU ban comes despite environment secretary Michael Gove saying, ‘I don’t want to water down’ EU protections


Conservative politicians are trying to stop a complete EU ban on bee-harming pesticides, despite the new environment secretary Michael Gove’s statement earlier this week, in which he said “I absolutely don’t want to water down” EU environmental protections.

Neonicotinoids are the world’s most widely used insecticides but have been banned on flowering crops in the EU since 2013. However, the European Food Safety Authority (Efsa) found in 2016 that use of the pesticides on all crops poses a high risk to bees. As a result, the European commission has proposed a ban on all uses outside greenhouses, first revealed by the Guardian in March.

On Thursday, an attempt by the Conservative MEP Julie Girling to block the full ban will be voted on by the European parliament’s environment committee. Most of the UK’s environmental protections derive from the EU and since the Brexit result many green groups have been concerned that these could be weakened after Britain leaves the EU.

Gove gave reassurances on Monday, telling BBC Farming Today: “We need to maintain, and where possible enhance, environmental and animal welfare standards. We have a strong position and good track record in both of those areas and I do not for a moment want to see either of them diluted or eroded.”

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...-aim-block-full-eu-ban-bee-harming-pesticides
I used that stuff when it first came out under glass I had to dress up in a space suit - it was called TEMIC a brand name came out in the late 1970's I had a contraption gun that fired the pellets into each plant pot - killed every pest under the sun - I wonder why I ended up with a kidney tumour and the bees are being wiped out - lethal stuff it needs banning!
As I was leaving the industry plant pest predators I used very successfully against all plant pest!
they need to use them all over the EU farmers are using Temic its cheap and easy!
 
Quite right Joey. Too many chemicals are released w/o thorough research of the consequences. Proper rotation, inter-planting and less industrial mono-culture help as well as your good natural predator usage.

Btw, how are you with setting up external rainwater irrigation?

I used that stuff when it first came out under glass I had to dress up in a space suit - it was called TEMIC a brand name came out in the late 1970's I had a contraption gun that fired the pellets into each plant pot - killed every pest under the sun - I wonder why I ended up with a kidney tumour and the bees are being wiped out - lethal stuff it needs banning!
As I was leaving the industry plant pest predators I used very successfully against all plant pest!
they need to use them all over the EU farmers are using Temic its cheap and easy!
 
Quite right Joey. Too many chemicals are released w/o thorough research of the consequences. Proper rotation, inter-planting and less industrial mono-culture help as well as your good natural predator usage.

Btw, how are you with setting up external rainwater irrigation?
I used to have it on a acre glass house computerised modern system - had to abandon it because the system that was installed in the late 1990s held bacteria harmful to my plants - root disease etc but time has moved on it may have been sorted now - growing plants on the volume I grew them 1/4 of a million bedding plants per year is very technical now the Dutch get subsidies the UK grower does not - another unfair EU advantage v the UK!
 
Well, I wouldn't be surprised if our government had something to do with it.


That sucks re the bacteria like. We're not intending to design a high input system, more like a manual system comprising a few IBC's, Honda Koshin pump and enough sprinklers to cover 16x25m x 1.25m beds with a few rows of perennial plants to house predator insects between, and around the outside.

I used to have it on a acre glass house computerised modern system - had to abandon it because the system that was installed in the late 1990s held bacteria harmful to my plants - root disease etc but time has moved on it may have been sorted now - growing plants on the volume I grew them 1/4 of a million bedding plants per year is very technical now the Dutch get subsidies the UK grower does not - another unfair EU advantage v the UK!
 
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