Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Bruce Wayne]

It also strains our public services that cancels out your benefits Bruce!

Evidence please Joe, and for clarification, we're not discussing migration here, we're talking about whether it should be open borders or policed borders. A managed migration system could have just as many people coming in, so public service levels are irrelevant.

You can Google it if you like mate.

 

[Joey66]

so you have no idea then.

Yes I do - immigration is a positive for us ATM as we have a skill shortage with our own poorly managed trades apprenticeship schemes - I remembered when it was controlled and we had the skills - this needs addressing in the future controlled skilled imigration was in both the two main parties had it in there manefesto!

 

[Old Blue 2]

Not really mate, as I believe the vote to leave was stupid. So I call it stupid, and then I back up why I believe it was stupid. I don't rage about it though, that's the difference - you fly off the hook far too easily.

I believe the vote to Remain was stupid. But I do not lay snide remarks at those who voted Remain. That, I believe, is the essentail difference between the two sides.

I don't fly off the hook far too easily. I respond to accusations with directness, and if people don't like that after they post strong/nasty stuff, then they should look at themselves in the first instance and decide whether to proceed with their vitriol and vituperation. What I posted from you earlier was a case in point. There was no need to lob the snide remarks at those who voted Leave - can you not see that?

Through the nearly 1300 pages of this thread there have been regular attacks on those who voted Leave, be it general attacks on their mentality, intelligence, being called racist, and other things, and also personal attacks on individuals. Do you really think those personal attacks should go unanswered? '25' called me a 'Biff' among other things yesterday, and when I resonded, I GOT THE REBUKE FROM A MOD!!! What??? Go back a few pages and read it, Tubey. See for yourself.

The bottom line is, however, Tubey, I will always discuss and debate with you although we hold opposite views. But if you (or anyone else for that matter) starts insulting me, or indulging in personal attacks on me, I will respond in kind. I will never instigate such things, only respond to them...

 

[Tubey]

I believe the vote to Remain was stupid. But I do not lay snide remarks at those who voted Remain. That, I believe, is the essentail difference between the two sides.

I don't fly off the hook far too easily. I respond to accusations with directness, and if people don't like that after they post strong/nasty stuff, then they should look at themselves in the first instance and decide whether to proceed with their vitriol and vituperation. What I posted from you earlier was a case in point. There was no need to lob the snide remarks at those who voted Leave - can you not see that?

Through the nearly 1300 pages of this thread there have been regular attacks on those who voted Leave, be it general attacks on their mentality, intelligence, being called racist, and other things, and also personal attacks on individuals. Do you really think those personal attacks should go unanswered? '25' called me a 'Biff' among other things yesterday, and when I resonded, I GOT THE REBUKE FROM A MOD!!! What??? Go back a few pages and read it, Tubey. See for yourself.

The bottom line is, however, Tubey, I will always discuss and debate with you although we hold opposite views. But if you (or anyone else for that matter) starts insulting me, or indulging in personal attacks on me, I will respond in kind. I will never instigate such things, only respond to them...

Look, I'll compare it in this way.

You know if you see two politicians disagree about something? One may say what the other said is "nonsense", or "stupid". But they wouldn't go into a rage of diatribe, swear and come across generally on the edge.

You got the rebuke not because you just responded, it was how you responded. That was my point - your post before was fantastic, the others were not. There's a difference between debating with direct language and flying off the handle and being generally aggressive.

 

[Old Blue 2]

You got the rebuke not because you just responded, it was how you responded. That was my point - your post before was fantastic, the others were not. There's a difference between debating with direct language and flying off the handle and being generally aggressive.

Let me take you through certain stages of the responses in this thread yesterday, and give me your views. OK? reasonable discussion.

I said: "...What the hell gives you the right to say my views were misplaced because I voted to leave. You, and those who continue to spout such crap are a disgrace, and I make no apologies in telling you and your kind that..." Now I am responding to an accusation that my views were misplaced. '25' did not have a clue at the time as to how my views were arrived at, and so made a generalisation about them, whether that was in the context of all Leave voters, or me personally. As I said earlier, the Leave voters HAVE been subject to such accusations for 12 months in this thread, and such continuous comments ARE a disgrace, whichever way you cut them - and those who propound them are equally guilty of being so. It is time such thing swere stopped (they should have been stopped a long time ago, but the Mods have done nothing in that direction).
He responded with: "...As for this, I can tell you were foaming at the mouth whilst writing it.
"Your kind". Less of that, you biff..."

Now, he accuses me of foaming at the mouth. Directly, that is a personal insult, since such an activity implies a disability of some kind or other. Do you not see that, Tubey? Then, he calls me a 'biff', which is a snide remark.

During the exchange between '25' and me, you chipped in with 'Word of advice mate - don't engage him. No point.' and I replied with pot, kettle, black, which, on reflection, both comments were humorous to me - some banter inbetween the other issue.

Then I replied to '25': "...
Now it's down to insults, eh. The refuge of the defeated.
You can dish it out, but don't like it when you get it back in equal measure..." Which is what it appeared to me, as he lobbed the personal insults, and I claimed they were the refuge of the defeated, etc.. I also said this: "...Big boy bullys spouting garbage, but little shithouses when confronted about it. Ten-a-penny, your crowd, and easily identifiable..." because I felt the insults were tantamount to bullying, and they can be spotted easily.

Then AndyC posted this to me: "...Calm down, cut out the insults and poor language and debate sensibly !!..." Fine, I accept the admonition because I used a naughty word: 'scheiss', but '25' got no such thing for the insults he lobbed at me when he said I was foaming at the mouth (I will not go into this in detail, as I know all about that as my son works in the care industry and has has explained all the various disabilities he has dealt with over the years, including the conditions that lead to that - it is NOT FUNNY at all, believe me). Perhaps with my explanation in the last sentence, you will understand a lot more why I was angry. If you have not come across those with such disabilities (not you personally, Tubey) you will not understand how nasty that remark was. That's why I was angry.

I'll leave it there...

 

[Joey66]

Evidence please Joe, and for clarification, we're not discussing migration here, we're talking about whether it should be open borders or policed borders. A managed migration system could have just as many people coming in, so public service levels are irrelevant.

You can Google it if you like mate.

Can you work our cost for the uncontrolled immigration cost of freedom of movement where the pressure on the cost of schools the services etc by way what you are arguing you have to be fair in balance yes they pay tax etc and claim tax credits etc or they come over unemployed a city the size of Hull is that feasible Bruce - sometimes the labour market is abused by low skilled migrant wages not being paid the minimum wage a massive Corbyn argument, as usual Bruce your blinked vision voting for a party that is so out of touch like you is not plausible at least your party have moved from a taxi to a minibus room now - Vince Cable was on the DP today a total embarrassment over having a 2nd referendum - do they ever learn?
you have to accept the vote Bruce and both major parties in their manifestos both stated controlled immigration - other countries have it - the four freedoms in the EU will dissolve in time as we are leaving!
accept it or be like Vince Cable!

 

[Ruairi77]

Can you work our cost for the uncontrolled immigration cost of freedom of movement where the pressure on the cost of schools the services etc by way what you are arguing you have to be fair in balance yes they pay tax etc and claim tax credits etc or they come over unemployed a city the size of Hull is that feasible Bruce - sometimes the labour market is abused by low skilled migrant wages not being paid the minimum wage a massive Corbyn argument, as usual Bruce your blinked vision voting for a party that is so out of touch like you is not plausible at least your party have moved from a taxi to a minibus room now - Vince Cable was on the DP today a total embarrassment over having a 2nd referendum - do they ever learn?
you have to accept the vote Bruce and both major parties in their manifestos both stated controlled immigration - other countries have it - the four freedoms in the EU will dissolve in time as we are leaving!
accept it or be like Vince Cable!

In order for the UK to thrive outside of the EU, there needs to be a huge growth in GDP. The kind of growth that requires massive numbers of immigrants to sustain. That's why Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are all part of the Schengen area.

 

[hullefc]

The Tories haven't a clue. They have been allowed to get away with such shoddiness since 2010 due to Labour's ineptitude, a state controlled BBC and the rest of the supine media who have not held them to account. It was telling the other day when Piers Morgan laid into Gove and he didn't like it and stated to complaint about Morgan's tone. Tone never bothered the Tories, when they were screaming at ''welfare benefit scroungers' who must be penalised. The Tories saw the poor, vulnerable, disabled, etc. as 'fair game' who must be made to work and if not sanctions and in work benefits cut.

 

[Joey66]

In order for the UK to thrive outside of the EU, there needs to be a huge growth in GDP. The kind of growth that requires massive numbers of immigrants to sustain. That's why Norway, Switzerland and Iceland are all part of the Schengen area.

Just tell me whats wrong with a work or student visa system?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Just tell me whats wrong with a work or student visa system?

I've already done that Joe, I'm still waiting for you to say what's good about it, using actual evidence from the countries with such a system.

 

[hullefc]

The Tories will have to be scrutinised very closely as we don't know what they are up to and hope to get away with.

'Red tape' Group looked at EU safety rules on day of Grenfell fire

 

[Ruairi77]

Just tell me whats wrong with a work or student visa system?

Not a whole lot but it won't be a robust enough system to handle the amount of immigrants needed to drive GDP.
And yes, Australia have made it work but their economy has been buoyed by a mining boom,
So unless the UK discovers vast amounts of rare mineral deposits, or starts a whole new industry like silicon valley, You should probably encourage freedom of movement through out the Eurozone in exchange for access to the single market. This doesn't stop you leaving the EU, in fact it makes the whole process quite doable.

 

[Joey66]

Not a whole lot but it won't be a robust enough system to handle the amount of immigrants needed to drive GDP.
And yes, Australia have made it work but their economy has been buoyed by a mining boom,
So unless the UK discovers vast amounts of rare mineral deposits, or starts a whole new industry like silicon valley, You should probably encourage freedom of movement through out the Eurozone in exchange for access to the single market. This doesn't stop you leaving the EU, in fact it makes the whole process quite doable.

I don't agree with it but Fracking, and we are the 6th largest economy in the world which may expand when we can trade worldwide !
Its all smokes and mirrors with remainers as they did not grow up in a free trade UK!

 

[Joey66]

I've already done that Joe, I'm still waiting for you to say what's good about it, using actual evidence from the countries with such a system.

google it yourself Bruce you never answer a question posted - is that a Lib dem policy?

 

[roydo]

I don't agree with it but Fracking, and we are the 6th largest economy in the world which may expand when we can trade worldwide !
Its all smokes and mirrors with remainers as they did not grow up in a free trade UK!

To be fair Joe, its all smoke and mirrors for all of us at the moment.