Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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All my post that day were on the economy I cannot why @bluestevon intimated I wanted people to go home of that race?
I reported him after trying to reason with him the mods { hard job they have told us to pack it in } sorry when I am on the receiving end of a quote by him like that I do not take it lightly it was disgraceful, those who backed me up as they know I never post things like that again thanks again for your support as I am not like that!

First off, apologies for implying you may be racist (as you took that to be the crux of my initial post) which given how it was phrased is understandable that you took it that way.

My main assertion though stands that a vote for Brexit whatever the reasons for doing so, effectively was a vote towards a closed borders Britain, hence why every far right party supported the out vote mate.

No reason to doubt your assertion that you voted out for purely fiscal reasons, and take back any inference that it was for reasons other than those. BUT and it's a huge BUT, without the agenda set by the Brexit campaigners who played the race card VERY VERY strongly in all their campaigning - there is no chance on earth that Brexit would have occurred - meaning if both sides would have ran campaigns based purely on the financial and trading benefits or lack thereof etc of leaving the EU - Britain would have not voted to leave.

It is why places such as Sunderland and other regions which have seen a huge influx in immigration from predominantly inside EU countries voted out. You can't discuss Brexit without the massive undertone of playing on peoples fears about mass migration/immigration being a part of the discussion, as that formed a huge and decisive part of the entire Brexit decision that was made
 
I don't think you're a racist Joey, but all the same you must see that a sizeable amount of Brexit voters did it on xenophobic grounds? UKIP gained the popularity it did for a reason.

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So I do believe racists and xenophobes voted for Brexit - but that doesn't mean I'm calling you a racist. People voted for many reasons; all I'm saying is that it should be acknowledged that these reasons were some of those reasons, and a fairly large part in my view.
It was not you it was another poster -yes I seen that poster - many many lies to mention on the whole campaign by both sides were propagated - I dont know how the hell why I get on with my italian next door neighbour who is a close family friend and his daughters etc or the doctor who saved my life as he was a English caribbean brilliant consultant, or my iranian Dentist or my Indian caring GP ?
that post was offensive to me not anyone else just his crude insinuation towards me personally!!
 
First off, apologies for implying you may be racist (as you took that to be the crux of my initial post) which given how it was phrased is understandable that you took it that way.

My main assertion though stands that a vote for Brexit whatever the reasons for doing so, effectively was a vote towards a closed borders Britain, hence why every far right party supported the out vote mate.

No reason to doubt your assertion that you voted out for purely fiscal reasons, and take back any inference that it was for reasons other than those. BUT and it's a huge BUT, without the agenda set by the Brexit campaigners who played the race card VERY VERY strongly in all their campaigning - there is no chance on earth that Brexit would have occurred - meaning if both sides would have ran campaigns based purely on the financial and trading benefits or lack thereof etc of leaving the EU - Britain would have not voted to leave.

It is why places such as Sunderland and other regions which have seen a huge influx in immigration from predominantly inside EU countries voted out. You can't discuss Brexit without the massive undertone of playing on peoples fears about mass migration/immigration being a part of the discussion, as that formed a huge and decisive part of the entire Brexit decision that was made
that was a long way round to admit you were sorry - thanks!
 
There's an attack in europe of some description nearly every day. We can't control migration while we are in the EU. If you've right to live in one country, you've right to 27.

I still don't understand how this compromises our safety. Free movement of people means free movement throughout EU countries - so how could that possibly encourage terrorist/violent acts?

As we have seen, these terrorist attacks or committed either by people born and raised in the country they attack, or have lived there for years after migrating from a country outside of the EU.
 
I still don't understand how this compromises our safety. Free movement of people means free movement throughout EU countries - so how could that possibly encourage terrorist/violent acts?

As we have seen, these terrorist attacks or committed either by people born and raised in the country they attack, or have lived there for years after migrating from a country outside of the EU.
There was an incident of a guy unchecked who murdered a young girl again though an isolated incident, but tell that to her family - he had a really bad criminal record, and just came over unchecked - it's rare but it should hopefully never happen - as you say it radicalised UK citizens who do the most damage - but allowing them back from war terrorist war zones is poor 3000 of them being watched by security services only 6 tagged - somethings wrong with our governments past and present !
We do need better control on those subjects and the radicalisation of the UK citizens too from both sides like the lunatic who tried to ram raid the mosque!
 
That's understandablem, and I look forward to your response.

Right, I'm back.

Here goes. I'll try to keep this as brief as possible, but it may require some detailed explanations, so bear with me please. Please understand these are my personal views, and enshrined within them are my opinions, which is a singular thing, and I cannot claim it applies to the broad mass of people.

I was in my twenties in the 1970s when the issue of joining the Common Market finally came into focus. We had tried to join on several occasions, but de Gaulle had always said 'Non!'. At the time, it was sold to us as being a trading agreement that would facilitate all manner of trade between those in the Common Market. Note: at that time there was no mention of a common European currency, no mention of any kind of European State machinery that would have precedence over individual State's legislation or judiciary, no mention of 'free movement' of peoples (the hot topis of 'immigration', as it is now known), nor of a unified European army. The vote to join was carried, and we were in.

Over time, this 'market' began to morph into something quite different to what we were originally told in the 1970s. As the 'empire building' continued within the central base of what I will now call the EU (for convenience sake), I began to see more and more dictation from the EU in legal matters. Some may be seen as beneficial on the whole; others fly in the face of what was currently the law in this country. Having worked on the legal side of things in the Government Department I worked in, I was seeing legislation being passed that was in direction contradiction to what was presently on the statute book. The EU was telling us how we should conduct our affairs in certain areas of our Government business. I was (one might say 'we were') also seeing EU interference in the judicial system of this country. Notwithstanding the fact that the appellate process is a necessary, indeed obligatory, mechanism within the whole system in this country, I was seeing ruling by our Judges being overturned by a central European body. This harks back to the point I made in my previous paragraph: "...no mention of any kind of European State machinery that would have precedence over individual State's legislation or judiciary...". That was of some concern to me then, as it still is now. So, over time, we were subjected to the double-edged sword of the EU dictating to the UK in matters of Legislature and Judiciary. I do not believe that should ever have happened, but as we know the EU has grown and expanded over the decades taking in many things within its remit that were not there when the question was put to us in the 1970s. And having a role to play in certain matters that rendered us 'impotent' (for want of a better word) - the Port Talbot steel works for one (having to ask permission of the EU regarding any financial help) and the EU grant of a loan to help Ford move some of its work from the UK to Turkey another. Is this the future? We lose control of certain matters, or have to go cap-in-hand requesting permission from the EU state to do certain things?

As for immigration, well I am in no position to pontificate about that, given my southern European surname, and being a Scouser, three generations back via census records and you are into a very strong influx of Irish to Liverpool during the middle half of the 19th century. My simple take on immigration is that it needs to be sensibly managed. Not open door, not shut door (both extremes are equally invalid, in my view).

European Army. It has been a topic in the media for quite some time. A unified European army to represent/protect the interest of the EU member states. Many have poo-pooed the idea, saying we are almost there already anyway, in that concerted action is always being undertaken, and there is some merit in that point. However, should the independent military scenario of the UK be 100% subsumed to European military, or European bureaucrats whose vested interests may lie only with their own country and not that of the UK? That might sound jingoistic, but one must look at how it would transpire in real terms if taken to its logical conclusion.

So, 25, I weighed everything up that had transpired over the decades, looked at how things were shaping now, and projected how they would shape in the future, and came to the singular conclusion that I believed the UK would be better out of the EU in order to determine its future path without the constraints placed upon it by the EU machinery.

I've re-read through this whole psot and see it is quite lengthy, but I hope it gives you a better idea of why just one person decided to vote leave. Both campaigns left me cold - posturing on both sides by big political names given a free role for once, and 'expert' economists spouting doom and glooom at every opportunity (when have they EVER actually got it right???).

I would welcome your further comments on the above, 25.
 
Right, I'm back.

Here goes. I'll try to keep this as brief as possible, but it may require some detailed explanations, so bear with me please. Please understand these are my personal views, and enshrined within them are my opinions, which is a singular thing, and I cannot claim it applies to the broad mass of people.

Thank you for sharing an incredibly insightful, detailed, well written response to my question. I really appreciate that you have taken the time, as time is ultimately the most precious thing anyone can give.

I was in my twenties in the 1970s when the issue of joining the Common Market finally came into focus. We had tried to join on several occasions, but de Gaulle had always said 'Non!'. At the time, it was sold to us as being a trading agreement that would facilitate all manner of trade between those in the Common Market. Note: at that time there was no mention of a common European currency, no mention of any kind of European State machinery that would have precedence over individual State's legislation or judiciary, no mention of 'free movement' of peoples (the hot topis of 'immigration', as it is now known), nor of a unified European army. The vote to join was carried, and we were in.

Over time, this 'market' began to morph into something quite different to what we were originally told in the 1970s. As the 'empire building' continued within the central base of what I will now call the EU (for convenience sake), I began to see more and more dictation from the EU in legal matters. Some may be seen as beneficial on the whole; others fly in the face of what was currently the law in this country. Having worked on the legal side of things in the Government Department I worked in, I was seeing legislation being passed that was in direction contradiction to what was presently on the statute book. The EU was telling us how we should conduct our affairs in certain areas of our Government business. I was (one might say 'we were') also seeing EU interference in the judicial system of this country. Notwithstanding the fact that the appellate process is a necessary, indeed obligatory, mechanism within the whole system in this country, I was seeing ruling by our Judges being overturned by a central European body. This harks back to the point I made in my previous paragraph: "...no mention of any kind of European State machinery that would have precedence over individual State's legislation or judiciary...". That was of some concern to me then, as it still is now. So, over time, we were subjected to the double-edged sword of the EU dictating to the UK in matters of Legislature and Judiciary. I do not believe that should ever have happened, but as we know the EU has grown and expanded over the decades taking in many things within its remit that were not there when the question was put to us in the 1970s. And having a role to play in certain matters that rendered us 'impotent' (for want of a better word) - the Port Talbot steel works for one (having to ask permission of the EU regarding any financial help) and the EU grant of a loan to help Ford move some of its work from the UK to Turkey another. Is this the future? We lose control of certain matters, or have to go cap-in-hand requesting permission from the EU state to do certain things?

I find it difficult to argue against anything you have written above. Despite the fact that I've been labelled a "remainer", I do share your belief that the British people should have been more directly involved in how far and/or much the UK were to involve itself in the European project.

As for immigration, well I am in no position to pontificate about that, given my southern European surname, and being a Scouser, three generations back via census records and you are into a very strong influx of Irish to Liverpool during the middle half of the 19th century. My simple take on immigration is that it needs to be sensibly managed. Not open door, not shut door (both extremes are equally invalid, in my view).

Free movement of workers has always been a strange one. If you look at the directive:

Directive 2004/38/EC introduces EU citizenship as the basic status for nationals of the Member States when they exercise their right to move and reside freely on EU territory. For the first three months, every EU citizen has the right to reside on the territory of another EU country with no conditions or formalities other than the requirement to hold a valid identity card or passport. For longer periods, the host Member State may require a citizen to register his or her presence within a reasonable and non-discriminatory period of time.

Migrant workers’ right to reside for more than three months remains subject to certain conditions, which vary depending on the citizen’s status: for EU citizens who are not workers or self-employed, the right of residence depends on their having sufficient resources not to become a burden on the host Member State’s social assistance system, and having sickness insurance. EU citizens acquire the right of permanent residence in the host Member State after a period of five years of uninterrupted legal residence.

So it was more an issue of consecutive governments here not 'enforcing' said ruling, which would have probably have put a lot of the rhetoric to bed. I'd also like someone to have the balls and speak up for the positives the free movement of workers directive.

European Army. It has been a topic in the media for quite some time. A unified European army to represent/protect the interest of the EU member states. Many have poo-pooed the idea, saying we are almost there already anyway, in that concerted action is always being undertaken, and there is some merit in that point. However, should the independent military scenario of the UK be 100% subsumed to European military, or European bureaucrats whose vested interests may lie only with their own country and not that of the UK? That might sound jingoistic, but one must look at how it would transpire in real terms if taken to its logical conclusion.

Again, another issue I have with this is that it would have required full co-operation of all EU member states. If the UK were to oppose the motion, then it could never happen.

I wanted us to fight for the European Union to revert back to the fundamentals of being a community of European people.

I wanted us to play an active role in democratising the ECC.

I wanted us to play an active role in ensuring that the people freed from the dogma of Soviet-led communism had an economy and environment in which to grow and fulfil their economic and personal potential.

But the Remain campaign ultimately failed to capitalise on this.

For whatever reason, the decision was taken to run a negative campaign - a campaign bereft of any imagination or belief.

I'm not angry at those that voted for us to leave, I'm angry at the people that ran that absolute shambles of a campaign. The people who took away the opportunity for our great nation to do what it should be doing - working in union toward the universal aspiration of opportunity and growth for all men.
 
There was an incident of a guy unchecked who murdered a young girl again though an isolated incident, but tell that to her family - he had a really bad criminal record, and just came over unchecked - it's rare but it should hopefully never happen - as you say it radicalised UK citizens who do the most damage - but allowing them back from war terrorist war zones is poor 3000 of them being watched by security services only 6 tagged - somethings wrong with our governments past and present !
We do need better control on those subjects and the radicalisation of the UK citizens too from both sides like the lunatic who tried to ram raid the mosque!

Which has absolutely nothing to do with being in or out of the EU.
 
Which has absolutely nothing to do with being in or out of the EU.
It does as there is freedom of movement - No border checks - all this will have to be funded to control worldwide immigration as well as the EU after Brexit - work visas will cost etc but thats what the present government and Labour opposition have, agreed , and passed in parliment to sign article 50!
 
It does as there is freedom of movement - No border checks - all this will have to be funded to control worldwide immigration as well as the EU after Brexit - work visas will cost etc but thats what the present government and Labour opposition have, agreed , and passed in parliment to sign article 50!

Has crime gone up or down since Schengen was introduced Joe?
 
Has crime gone up or down since Schengen was introduced Joe?

Rightio Joe, I went to the effort of looking on your behalf. I took Germany as a reference point for a number of reasons. Firstly they're a similar sized country to our own, but also they sit in the frontline of the Accession 8 nations that were admitted in 2004. Now, I couldn't find data going all the way back to 1985 when Schengen was introduced, but I could find data from 2004 to now to gauge the impact the A8 had.

Reported crime in 2004 6,663,156
Reported crime in 2015 6,330,649

So reported crime in Germany has gone down by roughly 300,000 cases per year, despite the apparent lawlessness of free movement.
 
Rightio Joe, I went to the effort of looking on your behalf. I took Germany as a reference point for a number of reasons. Firstly they're a similar sized country to our own, but also they sit in the frontline of the Accession 8 nations that were admitted in 2004. Now, I couldn't find data going all the way back to 1985 when Schengen was introduced, but I could find data from 2004 to now to gauge the impact the A8 had.

Reported crime in 2004 6,663,156
Reported crime in 2015 6,330,649

So reported crime in Germany has gone down by roughly 300,000 cases per year, despite the apparent lawlessness of free movement.
try terrorist attacks bruce in Paris and the UK recently the last 12 months deaths galore unfortunately!
 
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