Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Joey66]

I was taking about the vote today.

You're not still going on about the legalities of the referendum now are you?

Sorry your post was misleading tonight's vote give May the time she did not even bother coming home Labour had to respect the referendum result for its Polictical future end if!

 

[joey_macmo]

Sorry your post was misleading tonight's vote give May the time she did not even bother coming home Labour had to respect the referendum result for its Polictical future end if!

That's great Joey but it's non binding, they don't have to do a thing. It holds as much weight legally as the referendum

 

[The binman chronicles]

No we're not. When we leave, by your measure we will have lost, by our measure we will have won. The remain side only ever try and win an economic argument. The leave side are motivated by other measures........

I can see your point, but it's all how you define winning. If by winning there is more unemployment, poverty, less security as the infighting allows countries like russia to go about quietly invading whatever country they'd like. In return we have stopped people coming in from the EU but there will still be immigration from these places just like there has always been and our courts are back to being the ultimate rule (unless it happens to conflict with another international law that is)... it just doesn't seem to be much of a win to me.

Now that may not happen but you can't say definitely it won't, so just like judging the Mosh maybe both camps should not be able to say won/lost until we've had a good 18 to 24 months of being EU free.

 

[joey_macmo]

I know we haven't left, but that didn't stop Esk telling us all that by now we would be in recession. Europe however seems to be taking a battering rather than us, funny old world....

Eu28 on an upward trend to 0.4% growth against the U.K. Which is down to 0.5% growth

Once again Pete for a self confessed negotiator of international trade deals you seem to get these type of things wrong...a lot.

 

[Ruairi77]

I can see your point, but it's all how you define winning. If by winning there is more unemployment, poverty, less security as the infighting allows countries like russia to go about quietly invading whatever country they'd like. In return we have stopped people coming in from the EU but there will still be immigration from these places just like there has always been and our courts are back to being the ultimate rule (unless it happens to conflict with another international law that is)... it just doesn't seem to be much of a win to me.

Now that may not happen but you can't say definitely it won't, so just like judging the Mosh maybe both camps should not be able to say won/lost until we've had a good 18 to 24 months of being EU free.

Not to mention the possible reintroduction of a hard border in Ireland. Actually, what happens now? Do the devolved governments of Scotland and N.Ireland have a say?

 

[The binman chronicles]

Europe however seems to be taking a battering rather than us, funny old world....

Of course we have to make the best of it, and normally you can see who supports that by their suggestions of how things may improve or actions we can take to increase the rest of our International trade. Now go and have a look at all the posts of the remainers and see if you can find one positive suggestion or admission that doesn't include the EU......oh and good luck with that search.......

Hopefully that continues and they start to try and use us to help them which will help us at the same time, easy if people can swallow enough pride as no one really benefits from a messy divorce.

As for the rest of the post you make a good point, but surely that's the job of the politicians? So far they've made it look like they haven't got a clue, one deal made to Nissan to say we will underwrite any losses but they can't do that for all businesses and seems like unfair government help to the big boys at the expense of little companies that export goods around Europe.

I'm hoping May will get around to saying that we have done a deal to keep the banks in London, as if they bugger off to Frankfurt then we are in danger of losing the services industry we have lived off of for the last couple of decades.

 

[Joey66]

That's great Joey but it's non binding, they don't have to do a thing. It holds as much weight legally as the referendum

It buys time it's a Polictical agreement unlike the referendum completely there has been a vote tonight in Parliment!

 

[Joey66]

Not to mention the possible reintroduction of a hard border in Ireland. Actually, what happens now? Do the devolved governments of Scotland and N.Ireland have a say?

The EU even stated on the border issue in Ireland they had no desire to undo the good Friday agreement- it can stay open!

 

[The binman chronicles]

Not to mention the possible reintroduction of a hard border in Ireland. Actually, what happens now? Do the devolved governments of Scotland and N.Ireland have a say?

The list goes on... You can say it's driven another wedge between Scotland and the rest of the UK, more in fighting to be expected there. Possibly another referendum, all this money spent on these and the legal challenges on both sides. Millions of millions wasted just going to the elite we are trying to sock it to!!

The Irish border problem is one I wouldn't touch with a 50 foot barge pole. Someone else can comment on that one!!

 

[Joey66]

The list goes on... You can say it's driven another wedge between Scotland and the rest of the UK, more in fighting to be expected there. Possibly another referendum, all this money spent on these and the legal challenges on both sides. Millions of millions wasted just going to the elite we are trying to sock it to!!

The Irish border problem is one I wouldn't touch with a 50 foot barge pole. Someone else can comment on that one!!

The EU have already stated it can Remain open when we leave!

 

[The binman chronicles]

The EU have already stated it can Remain open when we leave!

Doesn't seem to be as clear cut from what I've read about it:

http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/new...n-northern-ireland-and-republic-35272450.html

http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/bus...n-ireland-trading-with-republic-35270515.html

 

[JonS]

Who in your mind are the establishment? Because from where I sit which is reasonably close to the establishment they are all delighted with the outcome.

There are a group of people who like me wish to remain in the EU but despite whatever wealth (or not) they may have they're not the real establishment.

Genuinely interested in who you think are the establishment.

Well, at least based on their utterances during the referendum - every living ex-Prime Minister, the vast majority of MPs, the vast majority of Peers, the vast majority of business leaders / senior executives, the vast majority of political journalists (and certainly most members of the commentariat), most of the senior levels of the armed forces and it seems most of the senior judiciary.

I voted Remain and I am still gutted about the result of the referendum, but I do think "the establishment" was very much on the side of Remain. And by "the establishment" I mean the majority of Tory MPs, the majority of parliament as a whole, the Bank of England, Wall Street, the CBI, the Prime Minister...

The very bankers who crashed the economy in 2008!

Interesting - you see I no longer see them as the elite, they may be establishment, but they're no longer in control (which is why they've complained so much). Control lies in the media and within the media a very small number of people, and it's those people who have run the agenda for many years, waiting for the opportunity to exploit. That opportunity was the referendum and the Mail, the Barclay twins and Murdoch seized their opportunity.

Therefore my argument that the weakness of the reasons for having a referendum, the weakness of those arguing for remaining (even though the arguments are totally sound), and the weakness for due process since, all because of the fear of losing the paymaster - the media.

The effectiveness of the democratic process is being destroyed on a daily basis. For years I thought the House of Lords to be a total anathema, yet only last week I met several members who put a compelling case for the value they offer especially when the Commons ceases to be an effective representative chamber, as is happening now.

Who do you think controls TV, radio, and the major news websites Joey?

I have to agree that a FEW of the newspaper proprietors and a FEW tory MPs supported Brexit. Nearly everyone else in the establishment (the vast majority of the house of commons, the EU establishment, Obama and the US gov't, the rest of the media and the BBC , virtually everyone in the financial systems in the UK and across the world, the Bilderberg group etc) ALL were heavily for remain and because their entrenched interests are now threatened HAVE BEEN GOING CRAZY at the result which they did not expect. The world order is changing AND THEY DONT LIKE IT though they will desperately try to cling onto power and the globalised system

 

[dandydan]

What were these fabricated stories that overcame the fabricated threats from the remain camp.....I'm still waiting for the recession that Esk assured us we would now be in........

I'm waiting for WW3, our students could do with a spell in a foxhole on the steppe to toughen them up.

 

[dandydan]

Thing is, parliament voted to hold the referendum, we had the referendum and then parliament voted on ratifying the result of the referendum and now the Lords get to vote on parliament ratifying the result of the referendum parliament voted to hold in the first place. It's like a monty python sketch! How many more hurdles does it need? And does anyone think a no vote would be subject to the same wrangling afterwards?

 

[JonS]

The votes tonight are probably for the best, carry on with article 50 but parliament should scrutinise the government's plan. Seems all fair enough. Even as a remain supporter (or remoaner) I didn't think the government should stop the process of leaving the EU due to the referendum result, however I will still admit i'm hoping on a wildcard to throw a spanner into the works later on down the line!

I still don't get some of the Brexiteers on here though, you know what the EU gives you, it's all quantifiable. By leaving we are stepping into the unknown, so unless you are a bunch of gamblers i don't get it. Even gamblers usually know how much they are betting and any potential windfalls/loses will be incurred. It's all pie in the sky theorem with this, based on the figures of Boris/Nigel and Michael bloody Gove!

I like to know the facts before making life changing decisions and I haven't heard many to do with brexit, or at least real ones anyhow.

I would save any gloating until after we exit the EU and then if it turns out to be better for the country then bravo, I will thank you for your higher wisdom.

I agree there is an element of gambling involved but this is because NOONE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN FINANCIALLY (even though esk thinks he does) and NOBODY EVER KNOWS ANYWAY what is going to happen economically (though financial speculators try and gamble on it and are sometimes successful) or can predict recessions or booms with any certainty.

In voting Brexit though I felt it was worth the extra financial uncertainty to be able to make our own trade agreements (not allowed to do that in the EU) set our own foreign policy , our own decisions on the economy and immigration (whether more or less or from which countries we can now decide on) and our own laws all round. We can now decide on all these democratically (in theory at least) by voting in the people that will carry out the particular decisions we want.

I certainly do not know for certain but I believe once the initial messy and expensive but necessary divorce is over we will do better economically than the countries left in the EU.