Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Bruce Wayne]

What's your basis for the statement in bold, Bruce? You appear to be making a generalisation that non-EU folk are less educated and offer less in skills than EU folk. Just wondering what your justification is for this assertion.

I'm basing it on official figures that say that non-EU migrants are less likely to have a job offer to come to, and are more likely to be unemployed once they've settled. I'm not here to judge individual people and circumstances about which I know nothing, merely that this notion that we'll be fine and dandy once the government 'takes back control' seems absurd when you compare their track record when they do have that control against a system over which they have no control.

 

[JonS]

The thing is, if the EU does suffer in the coming years, we will have played a huge role in that, as we will have given wind to the extreme parties that are gaining traction and who want to destroy the EU. That isn't a good thing, so it's not right imo to say we'll be better off from a mess we played a huge part in causing. For the last few decades we've had a level of unity with our European peers that is largely unrivaled in European history and it's a crying shame to be turning our backs on that.

I believe the mess has been caused by globalised economic policies (neoliberal globalisation I believe it's called) and that it is peoples feelings about their lack of prospects that has lead to the rise of these parties. I don't think it's our fault in us leaving the EU.

I accept that the EU may have contributed to peace within Europe (though not necessarily outside it)

 

[1966efc]

I believe the mess has been caused by globalised economic policies (neoliberal globalisation I believe it's called) and that it is peoples feelings about their lack of prospects that has lead to the rise of these parties. I don't think it's our fault in us leaving the EU.

I accept that the EU may have contributed to peace within Europe (though not necessarily outside it)

Just wondering at which point in its history you're referring to?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I believe the mess has been caused by globalised economic policies (neoliberal globalisation I believe it's called) and that it is peoples feelings about their lack of prospects that has lead to the rise of these parties. I don't think it's our fault in us leaving the EU.

I accept that the EU may have contributed to peace within Europe (though not necessarily outside it)

I've no doubt there is unrest at the moment because of globalisation. The thing is, firstly I think globalisation has been incredibly beneficial for the vast majority of people, especially in a consumer sense, but also the free movement of people has provided jobs and opportunities to study for millions of people throughout Europe. That's a wonderful thing that we should be proud of.

We are however living in a period of huge change at the moment. It's something the WEF call the 4th industrial revolution, and the pace of change is unprecedented. Again though, these changes are broadly speaking enormously beneficial to society, but we do need to do more to help those left behind. I don't dispute that at all.

It's the wrong approach though to blame foreigners for the situation people find themselves in. I guarantee that if we banned all foreign people from the UK tomorrow, those with low skills would still be in a bad position in a decades time. That is the world we live in, and skills and knowledge really are the key here, not banning foreigners or leaving the EU.

None of the populist parties are supporting this kind of upskilling at the moment as it's an easier 'sell' to say that your problems are the fault of foreigners, whether that's migrants 'taking your jobs' or work being outsourced. The reality is the problem is a lack of skills, and people are worshipping false idols I'm afraid. I mean Trump yesterday lauded a huge investment by the Japanese company Softbank in the US. The investment fund he was talking about is a huge investor in robotics, so would be potentially disrupting the labour market significantly.

It's akin to an obese person going to two doctors, one of whom says I'll make you healthy by doing 5 minutes walking a day, whereas the other one says I'll make you healthy but it will take months and a significant change to your diet and lifestyle. I know which one is more likely to help the obese person, but who do you reckon would get more support?

 

[The Cowboy]

I'm basing it on official figures that say that non-EU migrants are less likely to have a job offer to come to, and are more likely to be unemployed once they've settled. I'm not here to judge individual people and circumstances about which I know nothing, merely that this notion that we'll be fine and dandy once the government 'takes back control' seems absurd when you compare their track record when they do have that control against a system over which they have no control.

As I questioned the other day, how are non-EU migrants entering/remaining in the country without a job?

The odds are stacked against non-EU folk as it stands anyway, it's an uneven playing field so it's unfair to say they offer less when they're faced with far greater obstacles to be able to contribute in the first place.

The EU unjustly favours white Eastern European folk over folk from the rest of the world. And to think the Remainers accuse the Leavers of being racist...The EU is the most racist institution on the planet.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

As I questioned the other day, how are non-EU migrants entering/remaining in the country without a job?

The odds are stacked against non-EU folk as it stands anyway, it's an uneven playing field so it's unfair to say they offer less when they're faced with far greater obstacles to be able to contribute in the first place.

The EU unjustly favours white Eastern European folk over folk from the rest of the world. And to think the Remainers accuse the Leavers of being racist...The EU is the most racist institution on the planet.

How does it do that?

 

[JonS]

Just wondering at which point in its history you're referring to?

Not sure , but even though I voted to leave the EU I have to accept that there haven't been any wars between it's countries while it has existed whereas previously there have been plenty of wars.

 

[JonS]

How does it do that?

It allows freedom of movement and tarriff free trade between EU countries but prohibits tarriff free trade (and its countries commonly do not allow freedom of movement) with countries outside the EU.

This could be seen as racist but IMO is certainly Eurocentric and IMO perpetuates the wealth divide between first and third worlds

 

[dandydan]

Heavens above. The comment was that it would result in increased instability in the western world. That has happened. We have a UK divided, an American president (buoyed by Brexit) who doesn't value NATO and chummies up to Russia, and extremist groups on the march across Europe (buoyed by Brexit).

Were you expecting tanks to rock up at the white cliffs by the end of June ffs?

Ah so it's only scaremongering when the leave side do it? Gotcha. And whats wrong with Trump opening dialouge with Russia? Surely getting around the table is better than sabre rattling?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Ah so it's only scaremongering when the leave side do it? Gotcha. And whats wrong with Trump opening dialouge with Russia? Surely getting around the table is better than sabre rattling?

I haven't said anything about what the leave side did in my post.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

Not sure , but even though I voted to leave the EU I have to accept that there haven't been any wars between it's countries while it has existed whereas previously there have been plenty of wars.

Perhaps so but that has more to do with the time then the EU itself. The EU was only formed/replaced the Common Market (without the consent of any of the people's from any member states) on Nov 1st 1993. The USSR had already fallen so what was the major threat then? What wars have the EU played a role in preventing during that time? It's a myth to say the EU has prevented wars, nuclear weapons (a dictator doesn't have anything to dictate if his country is blown off the face of the earth) was far more responsible for the fragile peace the world currently has. Not to mention the fact that with 24/7 news coverage and access to the internet for most people has been a massive game changer. If anyone could educate me on what war the EU has supposedly prevented since Nov 1993 I'd be very interested.

 

[peteblue]

Eu28 on an upward trend to 0.4% growth against the U.K. Which is down to 0.5% growth

Once again Pete for a self confessed negotiator of international trade deals you seem to get these type of things wrong...a lot.

Once again, Joey Macmo , cannot see that 0.5 is bigger than 0.4. Just because you have no experience in any of these matters and by the looks of it cannot understand numbers either, you get upset because there are some on here like myself who do have experience. I know it tears you up, which is why you constantly try to demean it, but while I'm sorry that you are upset, I'm afraid you cannot take away experience........

 

[The Cowboy]

How does it do that?

Erm, what? By allowing free movement into the UK (and all other member states) irrespective of your skills, whereas everyone else has to go through the whole visa rigmarole, by which point the job has probably been given to someone from the EU...

 

[peteblue]

Hopefully that continues and they start to try and use us to help them which will help us at the same time, easy if people can swallow enough pride as no one really benefits from a messy divorce.

As for the rest of the post you make a good point, but surely that's the job of the politicians? So far they've made it look like they haven't got a clue, one deal made to Nissan to say we will underwrite any losses but they can't do that for all businesses and seems like unfair government help to the big boys at the expense of little companies that export goods around Europe.

I'm hoping May will get around to saying that we have done a deal to keep the banks in London, as if they bugger off to Frankfurt then we are in danger of losing the services industry we have lived off of for the last couple of decades.

They actually can say that for all other businesses. The EU sells more to us than we do to them. If we go to WTO rules then we can use any tariffs collected to offset our exports. If we do a deal of paying into the EU for access to its Market then they will have to pay to enter ours, a lower form of tariff if you will and we can still offset trading costs. If we end up with a free trade deal then the costs start to go away......

 

[Tubey]

It allows freedom of movement and tarriff free trade between EU countries but prohibits tarriff free trade (and its countries commonly do not allow freedom of movement) with countries outside the EU.

This could be seen as racist but IMO is certainly Eurocentric and IMO perpetuates the wealth divide between first and third worlds

That's like saying any country with borders that sets its' own laws is racist. Makes no sense.