Current Affairs EU In or Out

[gorgeousgeorgeEFC]

That includes all benefits available to someone of a working age.

Does that include housing benefit as well? I'm a massive proponent of immigration, but I did think that a reasonably high percentage of EU migrants claimed housing benefit due to low wages.

 

[JonS]

That includes all benefits available to someone of a working age.

Does that include housing benefit as well? I'm a massive proponent of immigration, but I did think that a reasonably high percentage of EU migrants claimed housing benefit due to low wages.

I don't have any facts and figures but my personal observation from my job in this area (in London) is that the number of EU migrants claiming these benefits is pretty low (and among Polish people who form quite a high percentage of EU immigrants, it is extremely low). This observation could be affected by any unconscious predudices or bias I might have but I notice far more African or Asian (eg Somali) immigrants claiming and quite often they have a lot of children too which means more benefits. The benefits rules these days largely preclude EU immigrants claiming benefits unless they have worked here first.

 

[The Cowboy]

I don't have any facts and figures but my personal observation from my job in this area (in London) is that the number of EU migrants claiming these benefits is pretty low (and among Polish people who form quite a high percentage of EU immigrants, it is extremely low). This observation could be affected by any unconscious predudices or bias I might have but I notice far more African or Asian (eg Somali) immigrants claiming and quite often they have a lot of children too which means more benefits. The benefits rules these days largely preclude EU immigrants claiming benefits unless they have worked here first.

Genuine question: how can African or Asian migrants even get into the country to claim benefits without a work visa? Or am I to assume they're all asylum seekers?

 

[JonS]

I'm not sure to tell you the truth. Are the countries ex colony's? I know India and Pakistan might be considered so. What about Somalians? I think some are refugees at least (Ethiopeans, Eritreans). What I do know they can only claim benefits once they have been granted leave to remain by the home office, which can take a while.

 

[JammyP]

It's not a fully costed model though. A full cost model includes current infrastructure, NHS, government services including defence, local government services etc etc, interest payment upon current loans and national debts etc. I reckon that when someone does the big sums, because they haven't really done them to date, then the financial case doesn't really stand up. Short term input fine, long term costings kicked into the long grass.....

They also pay income tax, and VAT etc on what they buy, to be fair.....

 

[Joey66]

If Brexit is their number one issue and they are passionately in favour of Remain, I think its is possible that the LibDems may gain a few of these voters as they seem the only party generally holding out against Brexit. Overall though I cant see Tory voters moving to them - I think they will continue to vote Tory.

The Richmond by election was probably not typical in that it was a by election and the libs often do well in by elections (they are brilliant one off and local campaigners).

Also Richmond is not a typical posh area in that although still mostly Tory and with eyewateringly high house prices it isn't as stuck up as most such areas and has had a libdem mp in the recent past.

It's a lovely area by the way with trees parks and the river. I would love to live there

In their £3-4 million houses in posh places!

 

[peteblue]

They also pay income tax, and VAT etc on what they buy, to be fair.....

Hey, no problems from me regarding payments in and out. But let's be totally honest here, we have a national debt of about £50K per taxpayer. I know I've paid mine and all of my childrens share off many times over, and indeed continue to do so, and if anyone coming in wants to contribute their £50K as a 'membership fee' before earning a living then they get my vote...if it's a price worth paying to stay in the single market, then it's a price worth paying to be in the UK.........

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Hey, no problems from me regarding payments in and out. But let's be totally honest here, we have a national debt of about £50K per taxpayer. I know I've paid mine and all of my childrens share off many times over, and indeed continue to do so, and if anyone coming in wants to contribute their £50K as a 'membership fee' before earning a living then they get my vote...if it's a price worth paying to stay in the single market, then it's a price worth paying to be in the UK.........

Say farewell to all the overseas people working in the NHS then, not to mention the many that work in care homes and the like to look after our growing elderly population. I'm sure you'll barely notice the difference.

 

[bflefc]

I'll answer it again then Joey. 2.2% of working age EU immigrants receive benefits even though they account for 5% of the population. Therefore the average immigrant is nearly 60% less likely to claim benefits than a UK citizen. Hope that puts to bed the claim that immigrants are a cost to the nation.

This might be a rather simplistic view - apologies if I'm miles off the mark, and I stand by to be corrected! - it what about the benefits them being claimed by a U.K. citizen who was unable to find work because an immigrant got the gig instead of him?

Pared right back to the most basic level:

2 people competing for one job.

The UK citizen gets it, pays taxes and doesn't required benefit support etc. Makes a net contribution to society.

The overseas applicant gets it, pays taxes and doesn't claim benefit support etc. Makes a net contribution to society.

But, in the latter scenario, the unfortunate U.K. citizen remains out of work and thus has to claim benefits. (There are also now more people requiring medical care via the NHS, school places (possibly), extra people on the roads etc).

Has that cost been factored in to the maths when assessing immigrants' real cost?

Genuine question, and I appreciate it can't always be quite so simplistic as the above scenario.

 

[The Esk]

Hey, no problems from me regarding payments in and out. But let's be totally honest here, we have a national debt of about £50K per taxpayer. I know I've paid mine and all of my childrens share off many times over, and indeed continue to do so, and if anyone coming in wants to contribute their £50K as a 'membership fee' before earning a living then they get my vote...if it's a price worth paying to stay in the single market, then it's a price worth paying to be in the UK.........

That is really nonsensical Pete.

The concept of personal taxation is that you pay tax on your personal income or capital gains. If you earn more than average you pay more tax than the average person, if you earn less you pay less.

If an immigrant is responsible for their 'share' of accumulated national debt then by the same logic each new born child in the UK is equally responsible.

What a ridiculous notion.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

This might be a rather simplistic view - apologies if I'm miles off the mark, and I stand by to be corrected! - it what about the benefits them being claimed by a U.K. citizen who was unable to find work because an immigrant got the gig instead of him?

Pared right back to the most basic level:

2 people competing for one job.

The UK citizen gets it, pays taxes and doesn't required benefit support etc. Makes a net contribution to society.

The overseas applicant gets it, pays taxes and doesn't claim benefit support etc. Makes a net contribution to society.

But, in the latter scenario, the unfortunate U.K. citizen remains out of work and thus has to claim benefits. (There are also now more people requiring medical care via the NHS, school places (possibly), extra people on the roads etc).

Has that cost been factored in to the maths when assessing immigrants' real cost?

Genuine question, and I appreciate it can't always be quite so simplistic as the above scenario.

If I may, you're setting wholly unrealistic goals here. How can any research possibly account for such variables? How can they possibly tell whether the migrant was more skilled than the native, or whether the employer would automate work if it could not be achieved for a certain cost?

This may be worth reading though - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

 

[Clint Planet]

Say farewell to all the overseas people working in the NHS then, not to mention the many that work in care homes and the like to look after our growing elderly population. I'm sure you'll barely notice the difference.

Most of the cleaners at my school are Congolese. These are the jobs that many white British people don't want to do, I suppose. The point is, though, they're sound - and they contribute.

The NHS would collapse without overseas workers. Get over it.

 

[Clint Planet]

I'll answer it again then Joey. 2.2% of working age EU immigrants receive benefits even though they account for 5% of the population. Therefore the average immigrant is nearly 60% less likely to claim benefits than a UK citizen. Hope that puts to bed the claim that immigrants are a cost to the nation.

We need to get rid of some UK citizens!

 

[The Esk]

We need to get rid of some UK citizens!

I can think of some who should be head of the queue!

 

[JLW]

I can think of some who should be head of the queue!

Tony Blair.