Current Affairs Donald Trump POS: Judgement cometh and that right soon

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Such sad news.

I hope there is an investigation to see if there is anything that could have been differently to save her.


Very sad story but not sure the blame lies entirely on border patrol in this case, you'd imagine the dehydration and exhaustion came from hiking across a desert to get to the border rather than during the time they were in custody. We shall have to wait and see.
 
Very sad story but not sure the blame lies entirely on border patrol in this case, you'd imagine the dehydration and exhaustion came from hiking across a desert to get to the border rather than during the time they were in custody. We shall have to wait and see.
You’d hope though that either when she arrived or sometime in the 8 hours she was in custody someone would have done an evaluation to see if she (or others) needed medical attention from their journey.
 
Very sad story but not sure the blame lies entirely on border patrol in this case, you'd imagine the dehydration and exhaustion came from hiking across a desert to get to the border rather than during the time they were in custody. We shall have to wait and see.

It's stories like this that underline the craziness of so much of the talk around migrants. That someone will go to such incredible lengths to come to a country, only to then become a criminal or a benefits scrounger or something defies all logic. In reality, they're making this incredible effort because they want a better life, and if the effort they put into their journey is any indication, they'll bust a gut to make that life a good one. It's hard to imagine a better person you'd want living in your country to be honest.
 
It's stories like this that underline the craziness of so much of the talk around migrants. That someone will go to such incredible lengths to come to a country, only to then become a criminal or a benefits scrounger or something defies all logic. In reality, they're making this incredible effort because they want a better life, and if the effort they put into their journey is any indication, they'll bust a gut to make that life a good one. It's hard to imagine a better person you'd want living in your country to be honest.

No offence, but that is a really dangerous argument and thinking along similar lines has probably got that child killed.

Immigration must be a safe and fair system, and there is nothing safe and fair about getting desperate people to pay criminal gangs, in some cases including actually enslaving themselves, in the hope that they will get a better life at the end of it. Honestly there are times when it almost seems that we’ve Uberized the middle passage, making them pay all the money and take all the risk just so they can work at the absolute bottom of our economies.

It’s also deeply suspicious that elements in the West seem to think it’s appropriate to cheerlead the idea that the West is the only place these people can find enlightenment, the kind of white saviour nonsense that we all thought was dead and buried. This is especially maddening because almost all of the countries people flee from were (and are being) screwed up by one or more Western states.

What we need is a system where people globally feel safe at home, where they can get better themselves and have access to education etc without putting themselves at absolutely insane levels of personal risk.
 
No offence, but that is a really dangerous argument and thinking along similar lines has probably got that child killed.

Immigration must be a safe and fair system, and there is nothing safe and fair about getting desperate people to pay criminal gangs, in some cases including actually enslaving themselves, in the hope that they will get a better life at the end of it. Honestly there are times when it almost seems that we’ve Uberized the middle passage, making them pay all the money and take all the risk just so they can work at the absolute bottom of our economies.

It’s also deeply suspicious that elements in the West seem to think it’s appropriate to cheerlead the idea that the West is the only place these people can find enlightenment, the kind of white saviour nonsense that we all thought was dead and buried. This is especially maddening because almost all of the countries people flee from were (and are being) screwed up by one or more Western states.

What we need is a system where people globally feel safe at home, where they can get better themselves and have access to education etc without putting themselves at absolutely insane levels of personal risk.

People moving to better themselves is a perfectly natural thing and is part of a functioning society. I quite agree that leaving such people at the hands of criminal gangs is awful, but they are at the hands of those criminal gangs precisely because there are so many barriers in place of them moving in the first place. If you remove those barriers then there is no longer a market for the gangs. I mean you don't hear of criminal gangs trafficking Poles into Britain, do you?

I'd also like to point out that nowhere have I even remotely said that the west is the only place that people can hope for a better life, and indeed I don't believe the west is coercing people into moving. It's a free choice that people are deciding to make. Who are you or I to say they shouldn't make it? All I ask for is that the barriers to them making that choice be removed.
 
People moving to better themselves is a perfectly natural thing and is part of a functioning society. I quite agree that leaving such people at the hands of criminal gangs is awful, but they are at the hands of those criminal gangs precisely because there are so many barriers in place of them moving in the first place. If you remove those barriers then there is no longer a market for the gangs. I mean you don't hear of criminal gangs trafficking Poles into Britain, do you?

Inside a country yes, with the agreement if the destination country yes, but there are very few precedents for people moving “for a better life” to destination countries without that country’s approval.

Removing barriers to movement is not a solution by itself because people would be even more susceptible to the gangs that traffic them here (as Merkel found). You have to have a system to manage migration or you end up with chaos.

As an aside, the free movement of Poles has had an effect both here and in Poland; here some have been exploited considerably in low paid work and accommodation and there the absence of so many young and middle aged Poles working abroad has had the effect of pushing domestic politics rightward by a considerable margin.

I'd also like to point out that nowhere have I even remotely said that the west is the only place that people can hope for a better life, and indeed I don't believe the west is coercing people into moving. It's a free choice that people are deciding to make. Who are you or I to say they shouldn't make it? All I ask for is that the barriers to them making that choice be removed.

That is the direct implication of your posts though Bruce, that the people who come here are doing so because here is better than there is. It might be, but surely the solution is to make there better, not get people here with false hope and at great risk to themselves.
 
Inside a country yes, with the agreement if the destination country yes, but there are very few precedents for people moving “for a better life” to destination countries without that country’s approval.

Removing barriers to movement is not a solution by itself because people would be even more susceptible to the gangs that traffic them here (as Merkel found). You have to have a system to manage migration or you end up with chaos.

As an aside, the free movement of Poles has had an effect both here and in Poland; here some have been exploited considerably in low paid work and accommodation and there the absence of so many young and middle aged Poles working abroad has had the effect of pushing domestic politics rightward by a considerable margin.

That is the direct implication of your posts though Bruce, that the people who come here are doing so because here is better than there is. It might be, but surely the solution is to make there better, not get people here with false hope and at great risk to themselves.

Well within the EU no one has to ask the destination country's permission to move. If you want to move and feel that doing so will be good for you, you do it. It's not really anyone else's business, and the idea that a bureaucrat would no more about you and your situation than you do is bonkers. That's a faith in the machinery of state that is completely ungrounded in any kind of evidence. Not only do EU migrants tend to perform better on pretty much every metric imaginable when compared to the 'managed' kind, but there is also no hint of the chaos you describe. It's best to leave talk like that to Farage.

Regarding exploitation, if you look at actual government figures - http://www.gla.gov.uk/media/3537/ex...xploitation-report-final-version-may-2018.pdf - the highest number of those working in forced slavery were Albanian, Vietnamese and British, so all people whom we have 'control' over and can supposedly manage. Even if we could mitigate this by controlling migration, the apparent willingness to blame the victims rather than the criminals is very concerning.

Similarly, evidence actually shows that emigration actually benefits the sending country rather than harms it - https://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR244.html. Not only do migrants send substantial remittances home, but they also learn valuable skills and build valuable networks that are heavily used when they do return home. What's more, by moving, they tend to reduce unemployment at home, and increase wages of those who remain. It's no surprise that the Visegrad countries have not only seen the highest economic growth in the EU but also have the lowest unemployment, despite many nationals moving elsewhere in the EU since 2004.
 
Well within the EU no one has to ask the destination country's permission to move. If you want to move and feel that doing so will be good for you, you do it. It's not really anyone else's business, and the idea that a bureaucrat would no more about you and your situation than you do is bonkers. That's a faith in the machinery of state that is completely ungrounded in any kind of evidence. Not only do EU migrants tend to perform better on pretty much every metric imaginable when compared to the 'managed' kind, but there is also no hint of the chaos you describe. It's best to leave talk like that to Farage.

Actually Bruce, the four freedoms mean that you do have to satisfy the criteria that the member states have signed up to; ie: moving for a job.

Regarding exploitation, if you look at actual government figures - http://www.gla.gov.uk/media/3537/ex...xploitation-report-final-version-may-2018.pdf - the highest number of those working in forced slavery were Albanian, Vietnamese and British, so all people whom we have 'control' over and can supposedly manage. Even if we could mitigate this by controlling migration, the apparent willingness to blame the victims rather than the criminals is very concerning.

But two of the three actions are precisely those who are trafficked though, the people who under open borders would still be trafficked.

Similarly, evidence actually shows that emigration actually benefits the sending country rather than harms it - https://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR244.html. Not only do migrants send substantial remittances home, but they also learn valuable skills and build valuable networks that are heavily used when they do return home. What's more, by moving, they tend to reduce unemployment at home, and increase wages of those who remain. It's no surprise that the Visegrad countries have not only seen the highest economic growth in the EU but also have the lowest unemployment, despite many nationals moving elsewhere in the EU since 2004.

Bruce that is not migration, it’s importing labour.
 
Actually Bruce, the four freedoms mean that you do have to satisfy the criteria that the member states have signed up to; ie: moving for a job.



But two of the three actions are precisely those who are trafficked though, the people who under open borders would still be trafficked.



Bruce that is not migration, it’s importing labour.

It's a bit worrying that you make such strong assertions that are wrong. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/factsheets/en/sheet/147/free-movement-of-persons is quite clear - people are free to move throughout the EU however they want. There is no guarantee that they will be eligible for any kind of social security support during that time, but if you have the means to support yourself, then there are no barriers to movement whatsoever.

I'm not sure what you mean by your second comment I'm afraid, so can't respond to that, but re your last comment, you make it sound as though some kind of coercion is involved, rather than an employer and worker entering into a voluntary agreement with one another. No one forced my other half to come to Britain, she did so because she thought it would better her life. I don't know a single migrant who is any different. When I applied for a job in London and moved from my hometown, London wasn't 'importing me', so why is it any different if I apply for a job in London from Prague or Warsaw?

Your fundamental argument seems to be that people should be treated differently by virtue of their nationality. It's not an argument I understand at all.
 
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