Does Cahill hold us back

[RFUS]

Cahill is important to us, but I think we're too reliant on him. Moyes should be able to rotate other players in the hole or go with 4-4-2 without causing significant disruption. I feel that part of the problem is that the gaffer sticks with what has always worked for him, rather than putting trust in other players to step up to the plate. Given extra responsibility, Ossie really came into his own last year. It's up to Davey to create competition for places by picking players based on form. If Cahill's not scoring, then we arguably need to look at resting him for a while. He is one of our most consistent performers though, so I wouldn't leave him out without good reason.

I agree.

The only problem is that for most people 'good reason' for changing it up and maybe dropping Cahill, is us losing and drawing every game. 'Good reason' for Moyes is that Tim Cahill is playing for Australia or has had his legs amputated.

 

[billycopper]

I agree.

The only problem is that for most people 'good reason' for changing it up and maybe dropping Cahill, is us losing and drawing every game. 'Good reason' for Moyes is that Tim Cahill is playing for Australia or has had his legs amputated.

Really, we need to try and match Cahill's form at the start of last season with other people also performing well. I don't see why they're mutually exclusive. Maybe some people thought 'Tim will save us' and didn't put as much in as they could have done? I guess Moyes sticking with Saha through his year-long drought shows that he doesn't have a plan b. If it was me, I'd be trying different things until I settled on a system that benefitted as many of our key players as possible. The amount of time that it took Moysie to realise that Arteta was being suffocated in the middle is further evidence of him sticking with something that doesn't work.

 

[RFUS]

Really, we need to try and match Cahill's form at the start of last season with other people also performing well. I don't see why they're mutually exclusive. Maybe some people thought 'Tim will save us' and didn't put as much in as they could have done? I guess Moyes sticking with Saha through his year-long drought shows that he doesn't have a plan b. If it was me, I'd be trying different things until I settled on a system that benefitted as many of our key players as possible. The amount of time that it took Moysie to realise that Arteta was being suffocated in the middle is further evidence of him sticking with something that doesn't work.

It's got nothing to do with player's effort or attitude when Cahill is/isn't in the side. It's about roles.

For example, without Cahill, Ossie got a reprieve from playing right mid for the billionth time and got to play centrally. In that free roaming, central role he was fantastic. If Cahill had been playing though we'd have gone with a 4-4-1-1 and Cahill would have been playing that role (or the equivalent) instead.

This is why I say Moyes is at fault though and not Cahill. He's the highly paid professional manager. He should be able to get the best out of both players in a formation that works for everyone. It's not easy though, I accept that.

I mean Cahill is quite limited when it comes to the roles he excels at. Maybe you could put him in a 4-2-3-1 with Ossie and Arteta in the 3 and have them all alternate? I don't know. It's a tough one. I just wish Moyes would attempt to figure something out, because every time Cahill plays we seem to use the same formation and the same tactics. It's stale and frustrating.

 

[tommye]

Timmy is a god. He's on the FIFA12 cover with shrek n kaka ffs!!

 

[billycopper]

It's got nothing to do with player's effort or attitude when Cahill is/isn't in the side. It's about roles.

For example, without Cahill, Ossie got a reprieve from playing right mid for the billionth time and got to play centrally. In that free roaming, central role he was fantastic. If Cahill had been playing though we'd have gone with a 4-4-1-1 and Cahill would have been playing that role (or the equivalent) instead.

This is why I say Moyes is at fault though and not Cahill. He's the highly paid professional manager. He should be able to get the best out of both players in a formation that works for everyone. It's not easy though, I accept that.

I mean Cahill is quite limited when it comes to the roles he excels at. Maybe you could put him in a 4-2-3-1 with Ossie and Arteta in the 3 and have them all alternate? I don't know. It's a tough one. I just wish Moyes would attempt to figure something out, because every time Cahill plays we seem to use the same formation and the same tactics. It's stale and frustrating.

To an extent I do agree with you. However, Osman played all across the midfield during that spell. His form was due to getting a run in the side and having the responsibility to create, rather than positioning. When we play 4-4-1-1 the lone striker hardly scores because they're isolated and they're pulled away from the danger area chasing down long balls and looking for space. Hopefully Moyes will experiment with alternatives this season. There are plenty of options for him to try.

 

[zimblue]

I like Tim but then I think the only way we are going to bridge the gap to the top is by increasing our technical ability.

Leon Osman was sensational in that position last season and it would be criminal not to persevere with that. We should build the side around Leon in that free role.

Maybe Tim can play in a deeper role, like in the first half against DC United.

 

[RFUS]

To an extent I do agree with you. However, Osman played all across the midfield during that spell. His form was due to getting a run in the side and having the responsibility to create, rather than positioning. When we play 4-4-1-1 the lone striker hardly scores because they're isolated and they're pulled away from the danger area chasing down long balls and looking for space. Hopefully Moyes will experiment with alternatives this season. There are plenty of options for him to try.

I'm going to half disagree there. I think positioning was very key, as he wasn't burdened with playing in a rigid RM role, where he is for all intents and purposes... not very good, to be polite. But you are right as well that him getting an extended run and more responsibility were both factors.

Looking back I can't help but think we've wasted Leon Osman. He's never been an intrinsic part of the first XI, nor has he ever played centrally for any great length of time. We're seeing what he can do now but he's 29. Imagine if we could have used him like this earlier?

 

[LTblue]

I remember when we played that brilliant football in the 07/08 season Cahill and Yakubu had a quality strike partnership that was an important part of our play, i'd like to think that with no Asia cup and a full pre-season behind them, that can be re-created and then there really will be a great source of goals and effeiciency in our play in the final third.

 

[zimblue]

I'm going to half disagree there. I think positioning was very key, as he wasn't burdened with playing in a rigid RM role, where he is for all intents and purposes... not very good, to be polite. But you are right as well that him getting an extended run and more responsibility were both factors.

Looking back I can't help but think we've wasted Leon Osman. He's never been an intrinsic part of the first XI, nor has he ever played centrally for any great length of time. We're seeing what he can do now but he's 29. Imagine if we could have used him like this earlier?

100% agree, he HAS been wasted.

 

[billycopper]

I'm going to half disagree there. I think positioning was very key, as he wasn't burdened with playing in a rigid RM role, where he is for all intents and purposes... not very good, to be polite. But you are right as well that him getting an extended run and more responsibility were both factors.

Looking back I can't help but think we've wasted Leon Osman. He's never been an intrinsic part of the first XI, nor has he ever played centrally for any great length of time. We're seeing what he can do now but he's 29. Imagine if we could have used him like this earlier?

I've generally not been a big fan of Ossie. I have to admit that he was great last year for a spell though. It's certainly worth trying him alongside Fellaini and behind Cahill for an extended run, to see if he can make the role work any better than Arteta. I still need to be convinced that it would be more effective than dropping Cahill in to a flat midfield and bringing Beckford in to partner Saha.

 

[RFUS]

I've generally not been a big fan of Ossie. I have to admit that he was great last year for a spell though. It's certainly worth trying him alongside Fellaini and behind Cahill for an extended run, to see if he can make the role work any better than Arteta. I still need to be convinced that it would be more effective than dropping Cahill in to a flat midfield and bringing Beckford in to partner Saha.

I would drop Cahill to the bench before dropping him into a flat midfield. He's not suited to that role, and it would be criminal to play him there with the abundance of players we do have who excel in the CM role. Assuming you didn't mean putting Cahill at RM or LM. Which would be an even worse idea.

 

[Jenko]

Cahill seems to shine when the team plays poorly and at the beginning of last season, the team was in horrendous form for whatever reason and he had a huge impact on making sure we didn't fall into the relegation places, without him, we would have been ****ed.

However, I think it's time we stopped relying on Cahill so much, he could make a great impact sub and be used in the big games and sparingly in the little games to see Bily/Osman/Rodwell in the middle and hopefully give way to Barkley when he comes through in 3/4 years.

 

[RFUS]

Cahill seems to shine when the team plays poorly and at the beginning of last season, the team was in horrendous form for whatever reason and he had a huge impact on making sure we didn't fall into the relegation places, without him, we would have been ****ed.

However, I think it's time we stopped relying on Cahill so much, he could make a great impact sub and be used in the big games and sparingly in the little games to see Bily/Osman/Rodwell in the middle and hopefully give way to Barkley when he comes through in 3/4 years.

I would say the opposite. The only reason we were in that mess was because we had no ideas, creativity or penetration. I attribute that to us using the same tactics and formation that we've been using for years. Which Cahill is a major part of. Teams knew how to defend against us, and bar set pieces, weren't in any real danger of conceding.

It's not always as simple as saying "without Cahill's goals" because that implies that if he'd not played we'd have done everything the exact same bar score. Which is nonsense. Without him we adapted, and we adapted very well. So well we climbed to 7th, which at one point seemed impossible.

But enough. I'm going in circles here. I think I've made my stance clear; I love Cahill, but no man is bigger than the team, and we should put out the best XI to do the job each week, not our favourite XI.

 

[billycopper]

I would drop Cahill to the bench before dropping him into a flat midfield. He's not suited to that role, and it would be criminal to play him there with the abundance of players we do have who excel in the CM role. Assuming you didn't mean putting Cahill at RM or LM. Which would be an even worse idea.

Back to the old circular argument. Chicago Toffee said that Cahill was ace in a flat midfield against DC. He'd be combatative alongside Fellaini like Reid and Bracewell. The creativity would come from the flanks. By playing two strikers, it would hopefully occupy the opposition centrebacks and give Tim even more space around the box to exploit.

 

[RFUS]

Back to the old circular argument. Chicago Toffee said that Cahill was ace in a flat midfield against DC. He'd be combatative alongside Fellaini like Reid and Bracewell. The creativity would come from the flanks. By playing two strikers, it would hopefully occupy the opposition centrebacks and give Tim even more space around the box to exploit.

FFS. I said enough and I mean it but I've just got to say one thing: against DC.

Cahill isn't good enough to play there against prem opposition.

OK, now I'm out.