So after all that bizarre denial, in the end you’ve just admitted that’s exactly what you were implying? That the two achievements are comparable? That was a very strange interaction.
So after all that bizarre denial, in the end you’ve just admitted that’s exactly what you were implying? That the two achievements are comparable? That was a very strange interaction.
JobForTheMoyes
Player Valuation: £50m
Really? How did it work for Man Utd, Sunderland and West Ham? Maybe it just highlights the fact that managers can only improve things to a certain point. Once your at or near optimal levels for the players you have you have to upgrade your personnel.
You can have Guardiola managing a crap team and, at the end of the day, they will still be crap with improvements at the margins.
Efcjake
Player Valuation: £80m
Yes those two players are upgrades. What about the other five we signed that aren't?
Massively upgraded is a massive overstatement to justify the heightened expectations. It's not accurate at all, and you want to bring up agenda driven....
AsiaAsia82
Player Valuation: £35m
Chelsea have spent close on a billion pounds on players.
I appreciate that’s spread over a few managers, but I don’t think the Europa Conference League and the Club World Cup are what the owners had in mind on their “ things to win list “
Efcjake
Player Valuation: £80m
"Massively upgraded" is 2 better players for the first eleven....
That's not a massive upgrade imo.
He deserves criticism for the Burnley and Brentford performances. We are also missing one of the only 2 players you think massively upgraded is and we were missing both for Burnley. So perhaps some context is necessary.
Totally agree with all that. I genuinely think he's good at developing players overall (Garner is a great example too!)
It's youth he has a massive stubborn blind spot about for the most part, and that is and will continue to be an issue for us
windymiller
Player Valuation: £70m
I did not admit that at all, and I'm not sure how you have got that from what I wrote. It's weird that you refuse to accept that winning a trophy as part of a collection of achievements can add up to doing a reasonable job simply because it is harder to win a cup with one club over another. I can acknowledge that it was a good achievement for Moyes to win that cup, I don't think it is a huge achievement but it is good and I'd be thrilled if Moyes could do something similar here, it certainly wasn't the reason Moyes got the sack at West Ham. I have explained my Moyes comment, it was to head off this sort of bizarre discussion where winning the trophy is a monumental achievement for one manager but a complete irrelevance for another (is that what you are implying?), in that regard I have clearly failed. Once again, however, my OP wasn't even about Moyes but I realise that any, even an off handed, slight of David Moyes will now be met with your righteous fury. I remember when you used to mock @Saint Domingo for this sort of stuff when he did it for Dyche. Weird.
windymiller
Player Valuation: £70m
That's fair, but the lad was in post for 18 months. I very much think he was sacked for pushing back against the clubs interference of his player selection and not for sporting achievements or lack thereof but there we go.
Titus Bramble
Best centre half to grace the Premier League
I don't think anyone would argue against the 2x examples you mentioned there aren't significant upgrades as individuals. But our squad has not been significantly upgraded as a whole.
But part of that is on Moyes isn’t? Signing a new striker for £27m (to replace someone you spent every day for years whining about) should be upgrading the squad shouldn’t it? Signing a new full back to replace Ashley young who 99% of the forum claimed only ever played because of dyche and was an embarrassment to the club should have been an upgrade. Committing to signing a midfielder for a higher cost than any of those already on the books should be an upgrade. £50m on dibling and Alcaraz to replace the loan of Jesper (no goals or assists for 3 years across 3 different clubs) lindstrom. If they aren’t upgrades, what on earth is the manager doing signing off on them?
Again, this isnt to stick the knife into Moyes, it’s just to highlight the ridiculousness of claiming expectations shouldn’t have risen in comparison to the last couple of years.
windymiller
Player Valuation: £70m
Lol, love that you put Sunderland on the list. I bet they wish they kept him on after he relegated them.
PercyPlant
Player Valuation: £15m
But acknowledgment from yourself about the United and West Ham points? Seems you just don’t like Moyes.
windymiller
Player Valuation: £70m
I'm very clearly on the record as not liking Moyes. West Ham have clearly gone backwards since he left, I'll give you that one but he was a disaster at Man Utd and both Van Gaal and Mourinho did better than Moyes so, by your own criteria, clearly outlined in your new thread, as they improved both league position and cup wins on the manager that came before then we saw a regression from Ferguson to Moyes followed by a progression after he left. So acknowledgement at West Ham, no acknowledgement on Man Utd. Fair?
I mean, to me 2 significant upgrades to your starting XI is a significant upgrade to your squad, even ignoring the fact that you’d say spending another £100m should also mean the wider squad has improved. The context here is increased expectations from thinking we should be aiming for 11th or 12th to thinking we should be aiming for 8th-10th, nobody’s claiming we’ve got the best squad in the world and have improved in every single position, that’s just a weird straw man argument being thrown about to try to help a pretty ropey argument.
