Current Affairs Critically ill man is former Russian spy

[peteblue]

Because that would be the act of a stable, secure regime.

Putin's regime isn't stable or secure, so he does stuff like this in the certain knowledge that we (the West, but in this case May) won't do anything serious to him. He gets to look strong, and his people don't start to question why it is NATO is so much closer to Moscow than it used to be (or perhaps also in this case why two to three hundred Russian "mercenaries" had just got butchered by the Yanks).

The can is kicked down the road for another six months.

And another couple of Billion is siphoned off in the interim.........

 

[davids]

You really are flying the Russian flag for them.......

Meanwhile...” Dr Vil Mirzayanov, who worked on the weapon in the 80s, appeared on Newsnight to reveal how Sergei and Yulia Skripal could have survived the nerve agent attack.

'Probably, first of all, they got a non-lethal dose. They also got an injection of antidotes, it wasn't that sure they had a chance to survive,' he said.

He also suggested the dose could have been old or diluted, adding: 'To expose this Novichok gas to the door handle, they probably used solution. They diluted it with solvent. That already complicates the penetration process.

'It doesn't give it immediately to the blood flow. Such circumstance probably allowed the Skripals to survive.'

Newsnight presenter Evan Davis also asked about the apparently mocking Russian response to the poisoning.

The Russian went on: 'They need information from England, from English experts. It's a game, only part of a game. Mocking and the laughing. Don't trust these games, the Russians are pretending.”

Not what you'd expect from a State that allegedly excels in assasinations on foreign soil.

 

[peteblue]

Is that the Novichok, the most deadliest nerve agent known to man with 'no known antidote' (Porton Down scientist), and the three survived?

The Porton Down expert said 'can't trace it to Russia'. I bet they can't.

Remember the consultant at Salisbury hospital's letter to the Times, '“Sir, Further to your report (“Poison Exposure Leaves Almost 40 Needing Treatment”, Mar 14), may I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve-agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning........"

Meanwhile, this Monday the only country that has stated it has Novichok is the UK.

PS thanks for the English correction. Even May is changing tack.

A nerve agent was used to poison a Russian former spy and his daughter, the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons said, as its inquiry backed the U.K. on the toxin’s identity.
Results of the OPCW’s analysis “confirm the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical that was used in Salisbury,” the organization said in a statement on Thursday.....

 

[davids]

Have to say I'd be more impressed with the UK Governments outrage at this if they had shown similar concern about our trans Atlantic friends exploits in Gitmo

 

[peteblue]

Have to say I'd be more impressed with the UK Governments outrage at this if they had shown similar concern about our trans Atlantic friends exploits in Gitmo

Except that the Americans didn’t try to kill two people in Salisbury with a nerve agent. Other than that you are right......

 

[peteblue]

Just in case Hullefc missed this.......

A nerve agent was used to poison a Russian former spy and his daughter, the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons said, as its inquiry backed the U.K. on the toxin’s identity.
Results of the OPCW’s analysis “confirm the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical that was used in Salisbury,” the organization said in a statement on Thursday.......

 

[davids]

Except that the Americans didn’t try to kill two people in Salisbury with a nerve agent. Other than that you are right......

If it was the Russians (and as the Americans get involved in so many "black ops as they so charmingly term them) it would be hard to work out who exactly was responsible for this rather ham fisted attempt.I remember a Vatican banker being found hanging from a bridge in London and there wasn't this level of outrage.But then the Government of the day weren't making a pigs ear of Brexit.

 

[OnlyBlueWillDo]

Russia saying Britain was behind the chemical attack in Syria lol

They are absolutely off their nuts in the kremlin, the stuff they come out with.

 

[tsubaki]

Have to say I'd be more impressed with the UK Governments outrage at this if they had shown similar concern about our trans Atlantic friends exploits in Gitmo

Or indeed the two Brits that were among the passengers of MH-17 over Ukraine; for some reason May didn't mention that outrage in either one of her speeches, including the one where she listed all the stuff he has gotten up to.

 

[bluestevon]

Just in case Hullefc missed this.......

A nerve agent was used to poison a Russian former spy and his daughter, the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons said, as its inquiry backed the U.K. on the toxin’s identity.
Results of the OPCW’s analysis “confirm the findings of the United Kingdom relating to the identity of the toxic chemical that wa

Pete you quoted Dr mirzansyov earlier stating how they could have survived the to a diluted firm or aged chemical.

How then does the part in the report you omitted stating the compound used "was of high purity" tally with your original post from the Dr? Or is it another round in the constantly changing versions of what happened?

 

[peteblue]

Pete you quoted Dr mirzansyov earlier stating how they could have survived the to a diluted firm or aged chemical.

How then does the part in the report you omitted stating the compound used "was of high purity" tally with your original post from the Dr? Or is it another round in the constantly changing versions of what happened?

Well the OPCW were reporting on what was actually found, the Dr was surmising what may have happened and how they could survive. The Dr assumed it was a weakened dose. Not being a chemist I cannot help you any further. All we know for sure is that the OPCW have completely agreed with the U.K. regarding the substance. I was reasonably happy with the UK’s findings and The OPCW have backed that up........the substance isn’t even up for debate anymore......

 

[bluestevon]

Well the OPCW were reporting on what was actually found, the Dr was surmising what may have happened and how they could survive. The Dr assumed it was a weakened dose. Not being a chemist I cannot help you any further. All we know for sure is that the OPCW have completely agreed with the U.K. regarding the substance. I was reasonably happy with the UK’s findings and The OPCW have backed that up........the substance isn’t even up for debate anymore......

Maybe the ocpw should have actually named the substance then tbh.

Did the say where and who manufactured it mate? Yanno as per the British government saying who they had proof had done it and that Portadown had told them so, only for Portadown to say the complete opposite when stating they could not assert the origin?

Btw the doctor stated the weaker dose because that would be the only possible way the British version of it being applied in a paste form could be true, ofc that gas been shown by the ocpw findings about the compound being a very pure version, it also blows our the water a variety of other claims made by the media and government about the compound being degraded due to how it was handled or due to age

At what point do you get a slight bit suspicious of what your told, if not after hearing a dozen different quite differing variants about what and how it happened by the British?

Good job the NHS gave him the antidote fast for the specific compound though, only they really didn't as it was a general antidote for the class of agent used, one that at the time people assumed they would die, was asserted to be insufficient to lead to this miraculous recovery.

Btw asked you before and you declined to answer I think, how exactly would it be portrayed if a British girl was poisoned visiting family in Russia, was then held and the British Embassy denied access to her, and the only statements from the girl where released in written form via the Russian media?

You think the press and government would take a different line to the one they are saying now as per the reasons and justification of this?

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

Btw the doctor stated the weaker dose because that would be the only possible way the British version of it being applied in a paste form could be true, ofc that gas been shown by the ocpw findings about the compound being a very pure version, it also blows our the water a variety of other claims made by the media and government about the compound being degraded due to how it was handled or due to age

Good job the NHS gave him the antidote fast for the specific compound though, only they really didn't as it was a general antidote for the class of agent used, one that at the time people assumed they would die, was asserted to be insufficient to lead to this miraculous recovery.

I will attempt to respond to a couple of points you make, bearing in mind this is my personal take on things and I have absolutely no CW experience.

To your first point regarding the delivery mechanism. As I understand it nerve agent is at its most deadly when it is delivered as a gas and ingested/inhaled by the victim. From all accounts I’ve read the agent was applied in a paste or powder form to the Skripals door handle. Exposure to nerve agent via the skin takes longer and has less of an effect than via ingestion or inhalation or so I’m led to belueve, also it was cold that day and they could have been wearing gloves when they touched the door handle. This could possibly explain an even greater time limit for exposure effect and also somewhat dilute the toxicity of the agent itself. Current military nbc gear relies on oversuits to limit the effect of nerve agent.

As to the second point you raised relating to the NHS and the treatment of the Skripals I would say that all NHS ambulances carry atropine as standard and this was applied early on. However the effect of the nerve agent required NHS staff to place the Skripals on life support as their ability to breathe and pump blood and oxygen around their bodies had been compromised by the agent. Once they had been stabilised I understand that they were treated with a cocktail of unique specific drugs aimed at combatting the effect of nerve agent. These drugs have been developed over the years by military scientists (probably from Porton Down)!

As to media reports regarding the lethality of nerve agent and the “miraculous” recovery of the Skripals I would say that historically nerve agent was expected to be delivered in gas form(its most lethal form) on the battlefield via bombs or artillery shells. The type of treatment and care provided by the nhs would not be available on the battlefield that along with the delivery form of gas nerve agent would lead you to a conclusion that nerve agent was indeed a deadly killer.

 

[bluestevon]

I will attempt to respond to a couple of points you make, bearing in mind this is my personal take on things and I have absolutely no CW experience.

To your first point regarding the delivery mechanism. As I understand it nerve agent is at its most deadly when it is delivered as a gas and ingested/inhaled by the victim. From all accounts I’ve read the agent was applied in a paste or powder form to the Skripals door handle. Exposure to nerve agent via the skin takes longer and has less of an effect than via ingestion or inhalation or so I’m led to belueve, also it was cold that day and they could have been wearing gloves when they touched the door handle. This could possibly explain an even greater time limit for exposure effect and also somewhat dilute the toxicity of the agent itself. Current military nbc gear relies on oversuits to limit the effect of nerve agent.

As to the second point you raised relating to the NHS and the treatment of the Skripals I would say that all NHS ambulances carry atropine as standard and this was applied early on. However the effect of the nerve agent required NHS staff to place the Skripals on life support as their ability to breathe and pump blood and oxygen around their bodies had been compromised by the agent. Once they had been stabilised I understand that they were treated with a cocktail of unique specific drugs aimed at combatting the effect of nerve agent. These drugs have been developed over the years by military scientists (probably from Porton Down)!

As to media reports regarding the lethality of nerve agent and the “miraculous” recovery of the Skripals I would say that historically nerve agent was expected to be delivered in gas form(its most lethal form) on the battlefield via bombs or artillery shells. The type of treatment and care provided by the nhs would not be available on the battlefield that along with the delivery form of gas nerve agent would lead you to a conclusion that nerve agent was indeed a deadly killer.

1st point - the 'paste' theory given forth by the government - also included that the agent would be greatly 'watered' down by engineering it to be used in such a application - ocpw stated categorically that the agent was a very pure form from their samples - including bio samples from the patients. As for the gloves idea - the temperature was 9c that day in Salisbury looking at met reports, the temperature in Moscow the preceeding week when his daughter was there was around -13c - and covered i snow (i was there ) pretty sure knowing russian woman she was thinking it was a summers day at those temperatures mate - never known a Russian man or woman to go around wearing gloves at 9c lol, also when leaving the house why on earth did both of them make sure to get a good grip on the poisoned door-handle, bit unusually - she checked it to just make sure her dad had done it properly?

2nd point - doesn't tally with complete recoveries for all 3 people involved and treated mate, the entire sequence of walking around going for a beer and a meal then leaving sitting on a bench and collapsing, this is one weird nerve agent that acts many hours after the contact with it, and doesn't seemingly effect the appetite or desire for a bevvie isn't it?
Also why given all the above you stated did a presumably very healthy police sergeant become affected far quicker than either Russian did (given one was 66yo and had imbibed alcohol also, the initial claim was because he gave first aid to them, this was later changed to he was poisoned retracing there steps at their house, a story which they changed how he was poisoned due to the fact not a single paramedic who would have had closer contact with the patients had the remotest problem post the event, also why given by the time he went to their house, the doctors etc where already seemingly treating the attack as a possible chemical attack did the good old bobby seemingly decide that his regulation uniform was protection enough and go around touching everything just to prove it?

IS the Russian account true - almost certainly not, is the British account an account that has had about 10 differing things at each stage revealed as 'facts' - yup - and every few days the story changed, the foreign secretary and PM both showed to have lied - ofc this was portrayed in the media by and large as a 'honest' misunderstanding by good old Boris.

Can tell you 100% if this situation was reversed and it was a British spy poisoned allegedly by the British and the Russians had come out with the series of statements about what happened, the lies and misinformation that has been in this case - then the media would have been absolutely using it as proof the entire thing was either fabricated/that they had some or all culpability - or that the investigation was utterly inept.

 

[peteblue]

1st point - the 'paste' theory given forth by the government - also included that the agent would be greatly 'watered' down by engineering it to be used in such a application - ocpw stated categorically that the agent was a very pure form from their samples - including bio samples from the patients. As for the gloves idea - the temperature was 9c that day in Salisbury looking at met reports, the temperature in Moscow the preceeding week when his daughter was there was around -13c - and covered i snow (i was there ) pretty sure knowing russian woman she was thinking it was a summers day at those temperatures mate - never known a Russian man or woman to go around wearing gloves at 9c lol, also when leaving the house why on earth did both of them make sure to get a good grip on the poisoned door-handle, bit unusually - she checked it to just make sure her dad had done it properly?

2nd point - doesn't tally with complete recoveries for all 3 people involved and treated mate, the entire sequence of walking around going for a beer and a meal then leaving sitting on a bench and collapsing, this is one weird nerve agent that acts many hours after the contact with it, and doesn't seemingly effect the appetite or desire for a bevvie isn't it?
Also why given all the above you stated did a presumably very healthy police sergeant become affected far quicker than either Russian did (given one was 66yo and had imbibed alcohol also, the initial claim was because he gave first aid to them, this was later changed to he was poisoned retracing there steps at their house, a story which they changed how he was poisoned due to the fact not a single paramedic who would have had closer contact with the patients had the remotest problem post the event, also why given by the time he went to their house, the doctors etc where already seemingly treating the attack as a possible chemical attack did the good old bobby seemingly decide that his regulation uniform was protection enough and go around touching everything just to prove it?

IS the Russian account true - almost certainly not, is the British account an account that has had about 10 differing things at each stage revealed as 'facts' - yup - and every few days the story changed, the foreign secretary and PM both showed to have lied - ofc this was portrayed in the media by and large as a 'honest' misunderstanding by good old Boris.

Can tell you 100% if this situation was reversed and it was a British spy poisoned allegedly by the British and the Russians had come out with the series of statements about what happened, the lies and misinformation that has been in this case - then the media would have been absolutely using it as proof the entire thing was either fabricated/that they had some or all culpability - or that the investigation was utterly inept.

Why are you so convinced that the U.K. and the OPCW must be telling lies. Why are you so ready to discredit the U.K. and by extension the USA the EU and various other sensible countries. Why do you not even consider that maybe, just maybe, it is true that Russia wanted to kill a Russian national who betrayed his country. If the U.K. was accused of killing a U.K. national living in Russia who had betrayed the U.K., I would perhaps believe it, yet somehow you cannot comprehend a gangster state like Russia doing so......