Council pushing for EFC & LFC as enablers to Open Outer Loop Line

[Inner-city]

right cant be arsed with the personal stuff or the grammer.

You should be arsed with the grammar. It is sad to see people write like this.

merseyrail is self contained as you state,

Network Rail own it and lease out the running to Nedrail a Dutch company.

The rolling stock tender has been going for years,

A new Merseyrail specific tend was put out a few weeks ago.

just because you ask the price of something dosnt mean your buying it any time soon,merseyrail have supposed to getting new trains at least three times in the last twenty years,

It was due for renewal in 2013, but put back a few years.

The photo of the current line i posted was to show the current state of the line, its quite clear it a start from scratch job,

It is not the trackbed it is there safeguarded and the also the bridges as your picture showed. When the M62 was built, with great cost, an underpass was left specifically for the Outer Loop Line. It is still there.

as for your platforms , they are not a standard height all over the country

The small number of stations on the Outer Loop can all be the new standard Merseyrail height.

The cost to reinstate track is about £12 million pounds per mile using the department of transports latest figures on a electric line.that figure dosnt include any civil engineering costs,access roads making sure the tunnels bridges are fit for purpose,fences tree felling ect,

So lets say £15 million per mile, so that is about £70 million to open the Outer Loop which bring great economic growth benefits to the city as well great convenience to two footballs clubs and many other bodies. That is buttons to the £18 BILLION for Crossrail. The "cost overrun" alone for the Jubilee Line extension, in the 18 months period was equal to all the spending on all rail in all the country. Get it?

The edge hill proposal at present does not include the wapping tunnel, it uses the existing station area with a new platform and booking office on a bridge like kirkdale, wavertree, and would be used as a hub to carry on into liverpool, or onwards in there journey,

That is for High Speed Rail if Lime St station platforms are not long enough. They can be extended.

As for the clubs borrowing big time, you think that will happen ?

Of course. They were throwing money at Spurs and countless clubs have built stadia all over the UK. Get this negative Liverpudlian attitude out of your head. It is widespread. Other [places have positive attitudes and things happen.

 

[Muggins]

Okay inner city, you win.

When does work start? And when are we going to win the league?

 

[neonleon]

I am laughing at this continued Arsenal comparison. FINANCED in the middle of a massive property bubble.

In the capital. Meaning they have eligibility to infrastructure improvement finances over and above other areas of the country.

Comparing a project in London to one in Liverpool is like comparing apples and pears.





LLC has a TERRIBLE financial track record. TERRIBLE.

They're broke. It won't be financed by the councils.

More like comparing apples and bears.

Anyway, LFC, EFC, Merseytravel, the local council, the department of transport, the government - none of them are particularly looking round at the moment saying, "right we've got stacks of spare cash. What can we spend it on?"

 

[Matt Damon]

More like comparing apples and bears.

Anyway, LFC, EFC, Merseytravel, the local council, the department of transport, the government - none of them are particularly looking round at the moment saying, "right we've got stacks of spare cash. What can we spend it on?"

The other comparison, was that it's not a closed loop line in London. Meaning that all the franchises (operating in London) had equal access to the infrastructure improvements.

Intercity's would not and technically would be battered out in court as it's anti competitive.

 

[edge]

If I managed another franchise and I was seeing a rival company getting a massive public subsidy to the detriment of my company...

I'd take them to the courts as it's anti competitive Article 101 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU)

and under Article 107 of that same treaty.

Because the principle is that public subsidy's should not be used to decrease competition or distort markets, they can be used to increase competition - under specific circumstances.

The fact this is a closed loop network would certainly factor in my mind on the above.


It couldn't be done without allowing other franchises in. And in doing so would lower the value of the MerseyTravel franchise - or the net profit they would be able to make.


... I bet Inter City didn't think of that did he?

city council will sort that out no problem, plus merseyrail made 12.1 million last year they can afford the cost no problem, l thats before the £8 million they paid to shareholder there rolling in it

 

[Muggins]

Okay inner city, you win.

When does work start? And when are we going to win the league?

Don't make me multi quote myself!!!

 

[Inner-city]

Unlike the capital merseyside doesn't have an enormous commuter market into central areas of the city as london does for non matchdays.

Merseyrail is a predominately a commuter-rail network. The Outer Loop will make it more into a metro, where you can use it to jump from district to district. Merseyrail is adopting the London type Oyster card.

So the comparison with arsenal or spurs is ridiculous.

Read this, this will fill you in:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/watercity/Rapid-Transit-Football.html

Let alone making it pay on matchdays alone. People won't go on the train to "sainsbury's" or other "enablers" you're talking about.

Metros create economic growth. They are self financing, but not on ticket sales. I doubt you know that. No underground system in the world is viable on ticket sales. Close down the London Tube and Merseyrail and the cities would contract and financially collapse. The growth they create is fed back to run the rapid-transit rail networks via public taxation.

A "fully integrated transport system" wouldn't be possible on a closed loop network.

The idea is to make it into two sub loops. Logical lines can be created that run through parts of the loop, which needs study. The point is that it is totally flexible

would require a massive public subsidy.

It is not subsidy. It is feeding back the economic growth they create.

Get the negative attitude sorted.

 

[Matt Damon]

city council will sort that out no problem, plus merseyrail made 12.1 million last year they can afford the cost no problem, l thats before the £8 million they paid to shareholder there rolling in it

I think what you were proposing were fairly minor infrastructure improvements. I don't think that would be a problem.

But the way Intercity's going off on one. His scale certainly would fall foul of EU competition law.

They must let other franchises in and to do that they'd need to ensure open access. So going back to this "closed loop" issue. They will need to ensure that other franchises can intersect if not operate on this. This will fundamentally change the existing franchise. Thats my point here.

 

[Matt Damon]

Metros create economic growth. They are self financing, but not on ticket sales. I doubt you know that. No underground system in the world is viable on ticket sales. Close down the London Tube and Merseyrail and the cities would contract and financially collapse. The growth they create is fed back to run the rapid-transit rail networks via public taxation.

Game set and match.

If you seriously think that there is any appetite or any ability to increase taxation to fund this - you're deluded. Both locally or nationally.


IT IS A SUBSIDY. TAXATION TO PAY FOR THIS ON AN ONGOING BASIS, IS A SUBSIDIZATION OF THE SERVICE PROVIDED BY THE TAXPAYER.

Won't happen. Doubt it would be legal the way you describe it too.

Negative attitude my arse.

 

[Chang Elephant]

And why am I being dragged into your infantile argument? oh, I forgot, Johnson is now regarded as a golden era.

Why bring Johnson into it, we agree that we "don't believe that the board have the vision or willingness at the moment" to deliver a new stadium project, so this train track mularkey is a bit of a non starter. This inner city character seems to be giving the board some credit.

Agreed about Leon's infantile argument btw.

 

[Inner-city]

Game set and match.

If you seriously think that there is any appetite or any ability to increase taxation to fund this

Increase taxation? Who wrote that? Pay attention at the back!!! BTW,look up Land Valuation Tax in funding transport infrastructure, as it did in Hong Kong, without any central taxation.

Taxation and economics is clearly not your field. That is sad.

 

[Matt Damon]

Increase taxation? Who wrote that? Pay attention at the back!!! BTW,look up Land Valuation Tax in funding transport infrastructure, as it did in Hong Kong, with any central taxation.

Taxation and economics is clearly not your field. That is sad.

Metros create economic growth. They are self financing, but not on ticket sales. I doubt you know that. No underground system in the world is viable on ticket sales. Close down the London Tube and Merseyrail and the cities would contract and financially collapse. The growth they create is fed back to run the rapid-transit rail networks via public taxation.

You said it yourself.

 

[Inner-city]

Why bring Johnson into it, we agree that we "don't believe that the board have the vision or willingness at the moment" to deliver a new stadium project, so this train track mularkey is a bit of a non starter.

The Outer Loop the Council is pushing is the key to the new stadium. Read all posts from Post No. 1 please.

This inner city character seems to be giving the board some credit.

They went for Kirkby, and never rolled over to propel the club to the championship. The failure of Kirkby is a blessing in disguise, as they can do better on the Outer Loop. They also built Finch Farm, which proves ambition.

 

[Inner-city]

You said it yourself.

You really don't get it do you? The metros create economic growth. None in the world are viable via ticket sales.

 

[Matt Damon]

You really don't get it do you? The metros create economic growth. None in the world are viable via ticket sales.

Its you that doesn't get that you're proposing something that would be illegal.