Current Affairs Coronavirus Thread - Serious stuff !!!

[ToffeeTim]

Tongue-in-cheek. Relax.


The problem with the school situation is that kids are a very high-risk group right now in terms of spreading the virus to the vulnerable. At least over here, parents have not been good about vaccinating their kids. It's a problem.

I have kids. I want them in school. I have not been happy, at all, with the focus on emotional welfare and stress levels over accountability. I think the schools, at least over here, have been teaching kids that they can get away with murder when it comes to actually, you know, doing work.

The restrictions are absolutely short-term measures that put a temporary lid on the thing without addressing the long-term problems. That said, the best way (short of putting radio transmitters in the vaccines and deploying people with tranq guns and vaccines, against which there are some civil liberties arguments) to address the situation is to accept that we're in a new normal for the time being and put some more permanent restrictions in effect. Eliminate/mitigate superspreader events, and we buy some time to recognize that we have an emerging outbreak and deal with it prior to having to resort to draconian measures.

Oh I know you were only joking, just wanted to clarify in case others didn't realise. Context can be missed easily in text sometimes lol

I do disagree with making any of these restrictions permanent restrictions because that means we never get back to normal at any point. We cannot allow restrictions to become a normalised part of life or society will start to fall apart.

Literally any indoor event could be deemed a potential superspreader if you want to go down that route. You're basically ruling out anything fun for the next number of years!! It's going to have to come down to personal responsiblity where no one is forced to do anything they aren't comfortable with, but people are equally not criticised for wanting to do normal stuff like meeting up with their mates.

The only solution is to accept covid may well be here for the rest of our lives (it's not going anywhere for a long time at least), make sure we have good vaccination uptake, help the health service as much as possible and make the reforms needed, and allow people to get back to normal. There is no way out out of this if we go down the restrictions route because if we aren't deemed protected enough at the minute, then we never will be in future either. We can't continue to live like this in the longer term.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I'm definitely not proposing euthanasia before anyone wonders!!

Might I recommend you don't a gun. My intended target was able to evade my attempts Neo-style and is still alive to this day. Slippery bugger.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Oh I know you were only joking, just wanted to clarify in case others didn't realise. Context can be missed easily in text sometimes lol

I'm serious about the hypothetical being the only way that's happening, but not about a rational person proposing such an absurdity. I agree that this is not always apparent to external observers. I've run into that one before.

I do disagree with making any of these restrictions permanent restrictions because that means we never get back to normal at any point. We cannot allow restrictions to become a normalised part of life or society will start to fall apart.

Literally any indoor event could be deemed a potential superspreader if you want to go down that route. You're basically ruling out anything fun for the next number of years!! It's going to have to come down to personal responsiblity where no one is forced to do anything they aren't comfortable with, but people are equally not criticised for wanting to do normal stuff like meeting up with their mates.

The only solution is to accept covid may well be here for the rest of our lives (it's not going anywhere for a long time at least), make sure we have good vaccination uptake, help the health service as much as possible and make the reforms needed, and allow people to get back to normal. There is no way out out of this if we go down the restrictions route because if we aren't deemed protected enough at the minute, then we never will be in future either. We can't continue to live like this in the longer term.

This is at the heart of the disagreement, and I think we can circle back around to risk preferences here. I also think that you raise a valid point with respect to the personal responsibility issue. What I'm getting at is that I think we need to have a serious discussion about some of the riskiest events - conventions, concerts (particularly indoor), sporting events (again, particularly indoor) and the like. We're dealing with business models that depend on a certain level of attendance now bumping up against a new externality associated with those businesses.

Under normal circumstances, we regulate that sort of thing. We don't (didn't?) let factories get away with dumping toxic chemicals into our rivers in quantity these days because of the health effects on others. When those factories break the rules, people get to sue them for the consequences.

If we could internalize the personal responsibility issue, I would be (relatively) fine with hanging it on individuals and pursuing them when they get out of line. There are ways. We could, say, mandate that if you want to engage in certain activities, you have to kick into a kitty aimed at compensating individuals for the consequences of your actions. We could also pay for retraining hospitality employees and the like through such mechanisms. We could fine people for excessive, unregulated gatherings, with the proceeds ending up in the same kitty. Of course, this requires paying for such enforcement mechanisms, requiring an evaluation of whether we can raise enough to make the whole thing worthwhile. If we can't, then we're back to a discussion of outright banning such activities, and when, against personal liberties.

A good analogy to the present situation is polio outbreaks in America in the first half of the 20th Century. Those tended to be localized rather than national, and local communities tended to play reactive ball the way we do today with coronavirus. What finally put a stop to that was near-universal vaccine coverage, which happened because political and media elites threw their entire weight behind making that outcome happen.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Looks like my one shot of J&J is going to be a bit of a collectors item on the vaccine bingo card

 

[ToffeeTim]

I'm serious about the hypothetical being the only way that's happening, but not about a rational person proposing such an absurdity. I agree that this is not always apparent to external observers. I've run into that one before.


This is at the heart of the disagreement, and I think we can circle back around to risk preferences here. I also think that you raise a valid point with respect to the personal responsibility issue. What I'm getting at is that I think we need to have a serious discussion about some of the riskiest events - conventions, concerts (particularly indoor), sporting events (again, particularly indoor) and the like. We're dealing with business models that depend on a certain level of attendance now bumping up against a new externality associated with those businesses.

Under normal circumstances, we regulate that sort of thing. We don't (didn't?) let factories get away with dumping toxic chemicals into our rivers in quantity these days because of the health effects on others. When those factories break the rules, people get to sue them for the consequences.

If we could internalize the personal responsibility issue, I would be (relatively) fine with hanging it on individuals and pursuing them when they get out of line. There are ways. We could, say, mandate that if you want to engage in certain activities, you have to kick into a kitty aimed at compensating individuals for the consequences of your actions. We could also pay for retraining hospitality employees and the like through such mechanisms. We could fine people for excessive, unregulated gatherings, with the proceeds ending up in the same kitty. Of course, this requires paying for such enforcement mechanisms, requiring an evaluation of whether we can raise enough to make the whole thing worthwhile. If we can't, then we're back to a discussion of outright banning such activities, and when, against personal liberties.

A good analogy to the present situation is polio outbreaks in America in the first half of the century. Those tended to be localized rather than national, and local communities tended to play reactive ball the way we do today with coronavirus. What finally put a stop to that was near-universal vaccine coverage, which happened because political and media elites threw their entire weight behind making that outcome happen.

Yeah I just don't think we are going to agree on this, but I enjoyed the debate to be honest.

I don't think the situation is serious enough, considering we are one of the most vaccinated societies in the world, to just ban indoor events for the foreseeable future. You are basically stopping most fun activities, and it disproportionately hurts younger people who work in these industries and enjoy them. I don't want to live in a country where people could be stopped from going out to normal social gatherings. Is it really the moral duty of people to not meet up to protect the health service forever? Philosophical for a Friday I know...

I do feel there is no one out there representing younger generations at the minute, but that is a whole other debate!

 

[Number_25]

Looks like my one shot of J&J is going to be a bit of a collectors item on the vaccine bingo card

The person in the replies clapping back, tagging the Texas wing of Moderna

God I love the internet

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Looks like my one shot of J&J is going to be a bit of a collectors item on the vaccine bingo card

It seems AZ is going the same way, with it now largely consigned to the "vaccine for the poor" pile.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Looks like my one shot of J&J is going to be a bit of a collectors item on the vaccine bingo card

You too? God, the Pfizer booster crushed me. Wiped out the next day running a 101 degree fever, then still sick for weeks. Not sure I'd have gone that route if I'd known the data on the degree of immune response for that combo at the time.

The details on this one have a lot to say about the political and perceptual causes of natural monopolies. It might well be that we're discarding the best long-run option, but we'll never know, now will we? It also says a lot about the whole pharmaceutical rep side of Big Pharma.

Yeah I just don't think we are going to agree on this, but I enjoyed the debate to be honest.

Me, too. The purpose of debate is not necessarily to reach agreement.

I don't think the situation is serious enough, considering we are one of the most vaccinated societies in the world, to just ban indoor events for the foreseeable future. You are basically stopping most fun activities, and it disproportionately hurts younger people who work in these industries and enjoy them. I don't want to live in a country where people could be stopped from going out to normal social gatherings.

I do feel there is no one out there representing younger generations at the minute, but that is a whole other debate!

I'm not saying that we have to shut down indoor activities entirely, or even necessarily mostly. There's a whole wealth of possible policy options, but most people don't seem to be able to see them. I don't know why people seem so determined to reduce everything to binary choice, but I think that the media framing discussions that way in first-past-the-post electoral systems has a lot to do with it.

 

[LinekersLegs]

You too? God, the Pfizer booster crushed me. Wiped out the next day running a 101 degree fever, then still sick for weeks. Not sure I'd have gone that route if I'd known the data on the degree of immune response for that combo at the time.

Moderna Spikevax booster for me, thankfully just a weekend of feeling beat up, at least you know your immune system is primed!

We’ve ticked the mRNA and viral vector boxes - next time perhaps a subunit protein one like Novavax or nasal vaccine?

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

That's not really true though. A bad reaction to flu will hit you like that but it doesn't affect everyone in the same way

Your wrong but I don't really care.

Just don't want anyone charging around because something resonated on the internet, with flu can do some serious life long damage if you don't rest up.

Oh I 100% had a nasty cold. I just think most people will realise that and use ‘flu/cold’ fairly interchangeably.

There were days where I couldn’t get out of bed like.

Not dismissing the nasty cold either, had one in September all.4 of us, only mine led bronchial pneumonia, thats because I probably continued working for a period. Had I taken time off earlier probably been off work for a shorter period...

 

[LinekersLegs]

 

[Martin Alvito]

Moderna Spikevax booster for me, thankfully just a weekend of feeling beat up, at least you know your immune system is primed!

We’ve ticked the mRNA and viral vector boxes - next time perhaps a subunit protein one like Novavax or nasal vaccine?

We'll have to make sure we get one via DIOSvax if they approve that as well, right?

 

[efcfanwirral]

Yeah I just don't think we are going to agree on this, but I enjoyed the debate to be honest.

I don't think the situation is serious enough, considering we are one of the most vaccinated societies in the world, to just ban indoor events for the foreseeable future. You are basically stopping most fun activities, and it disproportionately hurts younger people who work in these industries and enjoy them. I don't want to live in a country where people could be stopped from going out to normal social gatherings. Is it really the moral duty of people to not meet up to protect the health service forever? Philosophical for a Friday I know...

I do feel there is no one out there representing younger generations at the minute, but that is a whole other debate!

Frankly if that was the situation I would happily just sign away my rights for the health system to treat me for covid and take my chances til I get older.

The details on this one have a lot to say about the political and perceptual causes of natural monopolies. It might well be that we're discarding the best long-run option, but we'll never know, now will we? It also says a lot about the whole pharmaceutical rep side of Big Pharma.

Thought the same thing myself- we seem stuck with Pfizer and a bit of Moderna even if it means injections every 3 months. $$$ talks though

 

[efcfanwirral]

Moderna Spikevax booster for me, thankfully just a weekend of feeling beat up, at least you know your immune system is primed!

We’ve ticked the mRNA and viral vector boxes - next time perhaps a subunit protein one like Novavax or nasal vaccine?

Reckon Novavax will ever come in? Would help hesitancy and I'd much prefer it for the future ones. Will we just approve it and never see it though? We seem to be relying on regular mrna jabs

 

[Martin Alvito]

Polio-like estimated R0, polio-like public health response, polio-like curve. Adds up neatly.