dholliday
deconstructed rep
Wiz, seen as you're not explaining where you got this from, I'm just gonna assume it's a symptom of the collective blindspot (i.e. you see an argument that's not being presented).
These are the open questions, they haven't changed. The reason we have these questions is because many of you on here believe the unvaxxed do represent a danger. Did the next 7 or 8 pages since I was last online attempt to answer them?
Nope.
I've cited lots of literature. I've cited both that support my argument (that the unvaxxed should not be targeted as Untermenschen as viral loads are similar to vaxxed), and accepted the validity of literature which provides counter (that the increased unvaxxed-hospitalised represent extra hospital beds).
Maybe you missed those posts?
No, I've responded to every single thing. I feel it is my respondents who are cherry-picking (eg: ignoring that the unvaxxed & vaxxed have similar viral loads, which inconveniently does not support the argument that the unvaxxed are more dangerous than the vaxxed).
Fascist thinking.
Give us examples of such excuses.
How do you know that? It certainly sounds good in your head: right-wing bad.
two-part question here:
1) how does it put everyone else at risk?
2) how does it prolong the pandemic?
...we may already have the answers, based on the last few days' discussion
1) you could argue that the unvaxxed, due to their younger age & more socialising & less masks, infect other folk more often than the vaxxed (who are older, less social). The 3:1 swab-test studies we linked earlier support this.
2) the unvaxxed are more hospitalised. Tho' we need data on this to further confirm how relevant this is to all unvaxxed: ages, BMI, already high-risk etc.
Would those be your answers too? If so, is that enough to curtail the freedoms of the unvaxxed?
Let me remind you all of Israel: the most-thoroughly vaccinated nation on Earth:
Ultra-Vaxxed Israel’s Crisis Is a Dire Warning to America
“I don’t want to frighten you,” Israel’s COVID czar Dr. Salman Zarka told parliament this week. “But… unfortunately, the numbers don’t lie.”
webcache.googleusercontent.com
Key bits:
the principal causes of Israel’s current predicament are the dominance of the extremely infectious Delta variant, which was carried into the country by [vaccinated] Israelis returning from foreign vacations during the weeks in which Israel dropped all restrictive measures.
Fully vaccinated people with weakened immune systems appeared particularly vulnerable to the aggressive Delta variant.
In order to keep severe illness and the number of COVID deaths down, and avoiding a fourth national lockdown, Israel has embarked on an aggressive effort to provide all adults with boosters in a matter of weeks.
[the problem is] waning immunity, so that inoculated people get reinfected, and at the same time with the very transmissible Delta variant.
Israel's solution to the vaccines not appearing to end the pandemic, is to vaccinate more. Therefore, from Israel's perspective, the ones putting folk at risk aren't necessarily the unvaccinated anymore, it's the merely double-jabbed.
A sign of things to come? Will we soon be targeting the double-jabbed who are reluctant to get a booster? Shall we curtail their freedoms? The Autumn/Winter is bound to see an increase in numbers. Shall we have a two-prong freedom-limiter? The completely unvaxxed aren't allowed to leave their homes, and the merely double-jabbed aren't allowed to attend events?
How far does your logic take you?
I don't have the answers either, I'm just here to protect the rights of folk to choose what they do with their own bodies, and not be demonised for it. As an extension, again I am looking for real data on ages/BMI/pre-existing illnesses of the hospitalised/dead...so that the unvaxxed, and soon the merely double-jabbed, may make an informed decision.
Post any examples of misinformation since I've been active in this thread. Cheers.
Again, what misinformation?
How, in your understanding, does it do that? Is it the virus doing that, or human behaviour?
Yes, that does seem to be the case. But again, we need age/BMI/pre-existing illnesses data to better understand what this means.
right-wing bad.
Examples?
This is surreal stuff.
Just the double-jab, or also the boosters? And mandate how? What if people refuse?
You need answers to these questions if you make such bold statements.
How are they gonna cause this? And when you say "anti-vaxxers", do you merely mean folk who have chosen to not yet take the vaccine? Or do you mean actual anti-vax folk who are against vaccines in general?
The latter, I grant you, there's an argument their stance is a little crazy.
The former...no, there's no argument that their stance is crazy in the slightest.
Seems that way, unfortunately. In my view we need a very precise study on age/BMI/pre-existing illnesses of all serious-cases/deaths. Then we need to protect that folk*. The rest of us, get on with life.
*as technically a high-risk pre-existing illnesses person myself, I would accept being protected (i.e. less personal freedoms) if it means the rest of healthy young/middle-aged society can all get back to normal. I think folk are slowly going insane, but if the data supports the view that the vast majority aren't high-risk, then there's no need for it to continue this way.
Aye, we can hopefully soon better predict when the peaks will occur.
Not sure that's an argument for the above, considering similar viral loads and potentially a swift drop-off of the effects (see Israel piece above).
I agree the vaccines protect against more severe Covid illness.
If, as the evidence appears to be showing, regular half-yearly booster shots are required...perhaps indefinitely...are you up for it?
How will the unvaccinated get about? Go shops?
Israel appears to show this is not necessarily the case.
Israel appears to prove that the vaccinated also inevitably affect those people.
When you say "anti-vax", do you merely mean folk who have chosen to not yet take the vaccine? Or do you mean actual anti-vax folk who are against vaccines in general?
From this it appears you support the vaccinated be granted normal rights, whereas the unvaccinated should be granted limited rights.
What is your reasoning for this?
Where is your evidence that the relative normality we had in the summer was mainly due to the vaccinated? If that was the case, we'd also have relative normality now.
Why shouldn't you? What higher danger are they to you than a vaccinated person would be?
With this analogy, you appear to believe the unvaccinated person can infect you with a higher load than a vaccinated person. The science does not tell us this, it tells us the viral loads are broadly similar.
How are they increasing the risk?
There is no scientific evidence that the vaccines eradicate the virus. There is only evidence that they help prevent more severe cases. Think of it like the flu jab.
Why? Why should the 'anti-vaxxer' wear a mask when the vaccinated does not? What is the difference? It's not in viral loads...so what is the difference?
When you say "anti-vax", do you merely mean folk who have chosen to not yet take the vaccine? Or do you mean actual anti-vax folk who are against vaccines in general?
