Current Affairs Coronavirus Thread - Serious stuff !!!

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Nymzee said:
What possible solution aside from lockdown did we have that could reduce COVID deaths but also doesn’t possibly harm some in other ways?

Outside of a vaccine I can’t think of one.
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The answer to this question depends on what you consider an acceptable level of deaths. Do you want virus transmission eradication ala New Zealand? Or just reduction to a “minimal level”? Like when Johnson said 20,000 deaths would be a good outcome...

Measures could have been taken to reduce COVID deaths without official national lockdowns. Would they have reduced them to an acceptable level? Well again, that depends on your definition of acceptable. Proper slimy politicians answer I know but it’s the only one I can really give. Without lockdowns how much higher would the death toll be? I do not know but it’s a pretty safe guess to say much higher.

The problem is there is no perfect solution. Which is why when people advocate for a more targeted approach to restrictions; eg the tier system or the vulnerable being subject to stricter measures people are against it. If it doesn’t offer 100% protection then it is considered unfeasible and unethical. And yet instead, a plan which has potentially devastating second order effects is vehemently supported by some people with all negative aspects to this plan either wilfully dismissed or ignored. If we must accept that lockdowns will unfortunately inevitably lead to deaths unrelated to COVID then we must also be willing to accept, however fatalistic it may seem, that from the moment this virus was discovered and spread globally that a certain number of people were going to die. No matter what we did.

All this boils down to is this; in order to save lives is it ever acceptable to knowingly sacrifice others, no matter how small the number? Furthermore we’re not talking about individuals willingly sacrificing themselves for the greater good- the kind of stuff you see in movies.
We’re talking about governments implementing measures on the population which negatively effect their lives and can potentially lead to their death. That is the part that makes me uncomfortable. People missing crucial medical appointments or taking their own lives is not a part of “doing their bit for society”. Everyone should do as much as they can. And then a bit more. But dying? That’s where I check out.
 
Deckard2049 said:
The answer to this question depends on what you consider an acceptable level of deaths. Do you want virus transmission eradication ala New Zealand? Or just reduction to a “minimal level”? Like when Johnson said 20,000 deaths would be a good outcome...

Measures could have been taken to reduce COVID deaths without official national lockdowns. Would they have reduced them to an acceptable level? Well again, that depends on your definition of acceptable. Proper slimy politicians answer I know but it’s the only one I can really give. Without lockdowns how much higher would the death toll be? I do not know but it’s a pretty safe guess to say much higher.

The problem is there is no perfect solution. Which is why when people advocate for a more targeted approach to restrictions; eg the tier system or the vulnerable being subject to stricter measures people are against it. If it doesn’t offer 100% protection then it is considered unfeasible and unethical. And yet instead, a plan which has potentially devastating second order effects is vehemently supported by some people with all negative aspects to this plan either wilfully dismissed or ignored. If we must accept that lockdowns will unfortunately inevitably lead to deaths unrelated to COVID then we must also be willing to accept, however fatalistic it may seem, that from the moment this virus was discovered and spread globally that a certain number of people were going to die. No matter what we did.

All this boils down to is this; in order to save lives is it ever acceptable to knowingly sacrifice others, no matter how small the number? Furthermore we’re not talking about individuals willingly sacrificing themselves for the greater good- the kind of stuff you see in movies.
We’re talking about governments implementing measures on the population which negatively effect their lives and can potentially lead to their death. That is the part that makes me uncomfortable. People missing crucial medical appointments or taking their own lives is not a part of “doing their bit for society”. Everyone should do as much as they can. And then a bit more. But dying? That’s where I check out.
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I Live in New Zealand and all my family in the UK, Our lockdown was far more effective then others for a few reasons:

- We had completed border control and we are an island far away from others, this meant we actually kept people with the virus out and managed the people who came in, we kept them separate until such time they had been tested and isolated for 14 days.

- Also our lockdown was far more strict then many other places, the streets were empty no builders, no take away nothing for 4 weeks but supermarkets and pharmacy police enforced and mass compliance from Kiwis. The government supported homeowners business and renters over this period. No exceptions meant community transmission can be stopped .

From family in the Uk i understand so many business kept going under the guise of being essential, our government didn't have a bar of it when companies tried that here.

the result is we now have freedom, and very little non border related covid rules, also only a minor economic impact then just about any other country baa maybe Taiwan.

The Uk is past the point where they can do something like this, but a lot of Kiwis were looking at other countries still getting take out, opening up travel corridors and having large protests. at the same time kiwis sat at home trying to make there own pizza dough, other countries could have attempted NZ strategy and they may have been able to get similar result.
 
cahill007 said:
I Live in New Zealand and all my family in the UK, Our lockdown was far more effective then others for a few reasons:

- We had completed border control and we are an island far away from others, this meant we actually kept people with the virus out and managed the people who came in, we kept them separate until such time they had been tested and isolated for 14 days.

- Also our lockdown was far more strict then many other places, the streets were empty no builders, no take away nothing for 4 weeks but supermarkets and pharmacy police enforced and mass compliance from Kiwis. The government supported homeowners business and renters over this period. No exceptions meant community transmission can be stopped .

From family in the Uk i understand so many business kept going under the guise of being essential, our government didn't have a bar of it when companies tried that here.

the result is we now have freedom, and very little non border related covid rules, also only a minor economic impact then just about any other country baa maybe Taiwan.

The Uk is past the point where they can do something like this, but a lot of Kiwis were looking at other countries still getting take out, opening up travel corridors and having large protests. at the same time kiwis sat at home trying to make there own pizza dough, other countries could have attempted NZ strategy and they may have been able to get similar result.
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NZ is a dystopian hellhole run by a dictator. We cannot compare the two.
 
This discussion last night reminded me of trolley problem. Yes, less people die but in that instance you kill those less people actively, which is ethically more problematic and wrong.
 
Nymzee said:
I actually think the biggest thing I’ve taken away from this pandemic is just how low down altruism is on a list of someone’s personality traits. Like I’d say it’s rock bottom. I know we’re a selfish species but my God this thing has shone a light on it.
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Always important to remember humans are essentially animals.

Have the government missed a trick by not closing schools a week early before christmas? Roughly around 50% of spread is in schools.
 
Just been looking at the numbers for the different states in USA, states like Florida which are pretty open don't have particularly bad numbers compared to states with heavy lockdowns and mask mandates.

I haven't read into it massively but it looks like numerous blue states are worse than say Texas too. Is it purely just because of their geographical position?
 
Deckard2049 said:
The answer to this question depends on what you consider an acceptable level of deaths. Do you want virus transmission eradication ala New Zealand? Or just reduction to a “minimal level”? Like when Johnson said 20,000 deaths would be a good outcome...

Measures could have been taken to reduce COVID deaths without official national lockdowns. Would they have reduced them to an acceptable level? Well again, that depends on your definition of acceptable. Proper slimy politicians answer I know but it’s the only one I can really give. Without lockdowns how much higher would the death toll be? I do not know but it’s a pretty safe guess to say much higher.

The problem is there is no perfect solution. Which is why when people advocate for a more targeted approach to restrictions; eg the tier system or the vulnerable being subject to stricter measures people are against it. If it doesn’t offer 100% protection then it is considered unfeasible and unethical. And yet instead, a plan which has potentially devastating second order effects is vehemently supported by some people with all negative aspects to this plan either wilfully dismissed or ignored. If we must accept that lockdowns will unfortunately inevitably lead to deaths unrelated to COVID then we must also be willing to accept, however fatalistic it may seem, that from the moment this virus was discovered and spread globally that a certain number of people were going to die. No matter what we did.

All this boils down to is this; in order to save lives is it ever acceptable to knowingly sacrifice others, no matter how small the number? Furthermore we’re not talking about individuals willingly sacrificing themselves for the greater good- the kind of stuff you see in movies.
We’re talking about governments implementing measures on the population which negatively effect their lives and can potentially lead to their death. That is the part that makes me uncomfortable. People missing crucial medical appointments or taking their own lives is not a part of “doing their bit for society”. Everyone should do as much as they can. And then a bit more. But dying? That’s where I check out.
Click to expand...

I mean first of all New Zealand went into a national lockdown and secondly you didn’t give me an answer to the question just waffled on for ages.
 
Some facts around whether lockdown kills. ONS data shows for week ending 22 November excess deaths around 1,90for the week.

Total deaths with covid 2,366.

Total deaths where covid was the underlying cause of death 2,056.

This proves two things:

1. While deaths are thankfully at much lower levels than wave 1, we still have far too many people dying of covid.

2. While lockdown has all sorts of negatives for people, fewer people are dying of non-covid related things (around 150 per week based on the above) during lockdown.
 
OGG said:
Some facts around whether lockdown kills. ONS data shows for week ending 22 November excess deaths around 1,90for the week.

Total deaths with covid 2,366.

Total deaths where covid was the underlying cause of death 2,056.

This proves two things:

1. While deaths are thankfully at much lower levels than wave 1, we still have far too many people dying of covid.

2. While lockdown has all sorts of negatives for people, fewer people are dying of non-covid related things (around 150 per week based on the above) during lockdown.
Click to expand...
Typo in the above - excess deaths around 1900 for the week.
 
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