Current Affairs Climate Change

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People need to watch his videos...

Tony Heller is a hack who has dubious claims about his credentials (when someone writes "Boston University Geology" or "University of New Mexico computer geochemistry" without specifying in what capactity they were there it comes off as quite forced and insecure. Or when they make up a pseudonym to publish hack it makes one question their integrity). He had to retract his claim about Arctic ice. Even Barry Rathbone's hero, TV weather personality Anthony Watts, has implied that Heller (aka Goddard) was a hack. When one hack calls another a hack, you know you're dealing with some serious agenda-driven charlatansism.
 
In my response, I said 1) Rathbone, like other conspiracy/pseudo-scientist appropriators, quote-mine as a means to support their agenda--this is perhaps the weakest form of argumentation, 2) that Tim Ball is a pseudo-scientist lying fool, and 3) Rathbone has simply no conceptualization of what a model (nonlinear, stochastic or otherwise) is. As expected, none of this was addressed by Rathbone and instead I was accused of being "emotive" and a photo of a boxer was used to apparently make a point. This is precious.
 
@Barry Rathbone so you believe there isn't enough evidence to support the idea of man made climate change. I'd be interested to hear your take on the latest news from NASA https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2943/...are-getting-future-warming-projections-right/

Especially as you have already used NASA once to help prop up your arguments:



Will you at least concede that the processes that create the CO2 polllute the air with other particles that cause health problems, especially in big cities? If yes, and it can't really be anything other than yes if you follow the science, do you also support moving to cleaner energy sources/vehicles to alleviate this problem?
Oh yes, exhaust fumes are a desperate problem but catalytic converters and additives have made great strides in cleaning exhausts. Rather than attack fossil fuel cars en masse I would put grant money into getting old motors off the road and make it easier for joe public to buy new clean petrol and diesel cars. It would be far cheaper and less damaging on the car industry devastated by ill thought out "green" policies.Remember only hybrid cars have made genuine inroads into the market because of the "refueling" and range problems of EVs and they use the internal combustion engine.

If EVs ever resolved the range and refuelling issues I'd buy one the next day because as soon as they replace fossil fuel vehicles they will be taxed to high heaven to replace the lost revenue from fossil fuels. The theme is take advantage of the growing market and leave the grandkids to pick up the tab.

Re NASA GISS they manipulate data to suit it's not all cack but the temp records they produce are strangled till their version of the truth pops out

On the general energy supply question wind power and solar have massive issues so lord knows how that's gonna pan out.
 
In my response, I said 1) Rathbone, like other conspiracy/pseudo-scientist appropriators, quote-mine as a means to support their agenda--this is perhaps the weakest form of argumentation, 2) that Tim Ball is a pseudo-scientist lying fool, and 3) Rathbone has simply no conceptualization of what a model (nonlinear, stochastic or otherwise) is. As expected, none of this was addressed by Rathbone and instead I was accused of being "emotive" and a photo of a boxer was used to apparently make a point. This is precious.
There was a guy in my field (chemistry) who turned into a climate-change denying clown, but with one very substantial, maybe unique difference - he was a really good scientist. Not an absolute world leader or anything like that, but effectively a genius compared to the baseline cabbages that infest this area - knew nothing about climatology (obviously), but was a genuinely creative person with a strong track record of publishing quality. He was also sharp and charismatic in person and I think could have done quite a bit of damage shilling on this issue - sadly he died a couple of years back just as he was getting a bit of a profile as a denialist - his name was Istvan Marko.

He was a born contrarian - which you need a bit of if you're going to do something serious in science, the courage to challenge accepted wisdom. But he clearly lost the bottle you need to have to keep on the grant-writing treadmill, and decided to take an easier path.
 
The most recent analysis of the gargantuan problems with climate models was cited @verreauxi hardly Mr Fossil Fuel advocate :coffee: .

Not one of your proxy examples definitively identify man made co2 as causation but "facts" are incidental to "faith" and if believing in man made climate doom without robust science somehow makes you feel better then go for it. In the meantime you may have noticed the recent Madrid climate conference was deemed a failure because actions demanded by activists did not become policy - why? Because in the real world politicians know costs and implications would be enormous and the public would rebel as they did in France over exorbitant fuel taxes. Politicians may pay lip service to flavour of the month extremism but they know the vast majority have no truck with the lunacy and the idea of their political suicide trying to prove otherwise focuses their vote grabbing minds

When a mentally afflicted schoolgirl becomes unofficial spokesperson for the cult ranting and railing at people who provided the very basis of her freedom and life there really is no way back.

Keep the faith, macca

How goes your membership to ‘Friends of Science’ Barry? Bathing in those Big Oil dollars?

What Barry won’t discuss is the hand that controls his favourite puppet arguments and why he stands alone siding with politicians and fossil fuel companies.
 
Oh yes, exhaust fumes are a desperate problem but catalytic converters and additives have made great strides in cleaning exhausts. Rather than attack fossil fuel cars en masse I would put grant money into getting old motors off the road and make it easier for joe public to buy new clean petrol and diesel cars. It would be far cheaper and less damaging on the car industry devastated by ill thought out "green" policies.Remember only hybrid cars have made genuine inroads into the market because of the "refueling" and range problems of EVs and they use the internal combustion engine.

If EVs ever resolved the range and refuelling issues I'd buy one the next day because as soon as they replace fossil fuel vehicles they will be taxed to high heaven to replace the lost revenue from fossil fuels. The theme is take advantage of the growing market and leave the grandkids to pick up the tab.

Re NASA GISS they manipulate data to suit it's not all cack but the temp records they produce are strangled till their version of the truth pops out

On the general energy supply question wind power and solar have massive issues so lord knows how that's gonna pan out.
Catalytic converters are terrible. It is a myth that they're good for the environment.

The mining and processing and refining to acquire the necessary precious metals as catalysts: the reduction in fuel efficiency by increasing back pressure in exhausts; the necessity to remove lead as a pre-ignition inhibitor in order to not poison the catalysts and replace that with carcinogenic benzene derivatives and for what?

They usefully convert NOx into N2 reducing acidity. They convert toxic CO into CO2.

Producing CO2 in this manner does nothing to reduce the greenhouse effect. What it does do is fool people into thinking that catalytic converters make their cars use friendly so they use them more freely, releasing more CO2 to nip down to the shop rather than walk.

Add to this that catalytic converters are not effective until they're hot - ie about 10 minutes hard driving down a motorway, and you'll see that most of the time, for most journeys (short) their detrimental effects could well outweigh their positive effects.

But fuel consumption increases - the oil companies are happy, the mining companies are happy, the motor manufacturers are happy to replace expensive converters when they fail, and governments are happy to acquire fuel duty and taxes on each and every sale.
 
You seem to have confused yourself quite badly here.

The best way of confirming the robustness of any science (is it or is it not an exact science) is by examining the "same data". You claim to be a scientist in which case you must be aware the burden of proof lies with the proponent of the notion the evidence NEEDS to stand scrutiny. Thanks to the citation supplied by @verrauxi where he inadvertently hangs himself again we are once again furnished with more detail about the litany of issues surrounding climate models - in other words the "same data" used by proponents of climate doom gospel has been exposed as utter cack. Given no observational evidence exists for said gospel the conclusion is inescapable - "climate science is not an exact science"

In answer to your question I can see why you are confused but clear thinkers not so much.

You don't have to answer this but I'm interested as to what branch of science you are involved in because you seem totally ignorant of the rudimentary principles that apply to science.
Right, I think I understand the confusion now. You are basing your argument against climate change on the belief that people are saying climate science is an exact science, and can be proved in pretty much the same way that the laws of physics are considered proven and exact (which is why they are called laws). I think that is referred to as a strawman argument and does the whole discussion a disservice.

Climate science is a different type of science to chemistry and physics. It is based on data gathering, analysing the data points, making a best hypothesis as to what the data means, and then challenging and testing those data points as far as possible. Physics aims to prove something is predictable and repeatable every single time such as Newtons LAWS of motion or Boyles LAW. Due to the many variables in climate, it will never be exact, which is why no one is claiming it is exact.

Now, there are millions of those data points available which have been analysed and checked by millions of scientsts and statistitians. And the absolutely overwhelming proportion of those scientists agree on the same conclusion - humans are contributing to an increase in climate change activity. And their findings have been published in peer reviewed scientific journals so that they can be openly and fully critiqued.

Yes, there are some scientists that have reviewed those same data points and arrived at different conclusions. Some of those have also been published in peer reviewed scientific journals which can be openly and fully critiqued.

For the general public that have not been trained in scientific methodology, they then have a choice. Trust the more than 97% of scientists that arrive at the conclusion that man made climate change is real, or believe the less than 3% that arrive at the conclusion it isn't.

Statistically, I think the 97% are more likely to be correct, which is what I base my opinions on. You seem to be agreeing with the 3%. Which leads to the obvious question of why? Do you believe they have access to data that the 97% don't and are therefore more knowledgable, or is it that you just don't want to accept man made climate change and are just cherry picking the statistics which support your point of view?
 
How goes your membership to ‘Friends of Science’ Barry? Bathing in those Big Oil dollars?

What Barry won’t discuss is the hand that controls his favourite puppet arguments and why he stands alone siding with politicians and fossil fuel companies.
You've nailed me.

Tbh I need a wheelbarrow to collect my wages sometimes it's so much they pay me in gold bars and I rent a massive flatbed truck with a huge V8 belching out fumes to carry the stuff home. You won't be surprised to learn I make a detour past the asthma clinic to make sure they get a good gobful of fumes whilst shouting "LOOK AT ME I'M LOADED"

#argumentbystereotype
 
Right, I think I understand the confusion now. You are basing your argument against climate change on the belief that people are saying climate science is an exact science, and can be proved in pretty much the same way that the laws of physics are considered proven and exact (which is why they are called laws). I think that is referred to as a strawman argument and does the whole discussion a disservice.....


For the general public that have not been trained in scientific methodology, they then have a choice. Trust the more than 97% of scientists that arrive at the conclusion that man made climate change is real, or believe the less than 3% that arrive at the conclusion it isn't......

Statistically, I think the 97% are more likely to be correct, which is what I base my opinions on.....

No, that is called "hard science" as opposed to something more akin to casting the runes

Most skeptics are prepared to accept co2 has the potential to contribute to a changing climate changing but obviously it is the degree under debate and with no observational evidence definitively demonstrating "how much" panic and global policy decisions made on guesswork is risible nonsense. I would add there are pro man made warming advocates now saying the total co2 effect is next to eff all :coffee:

The "97%" meme has been debunked a thousand times
 
Catalytic converters are terrible. It is a myth that they're good for the environment.

The mining and processing and refining to acquire the necessary precious metals as catalysts: the reduction in fuel efficiency by increasing back pressure in exhausts; the necessity to remove lead as a pre-ignition inhibitor in order to not poison the catalysts and replace that with carcinogenic benzene derivatives and for what?

They usefully convert NOx into N2 reducing acidity. They convert toxic CO into CO2.

Producing CO2 in this manner does nothing to reduce the greenhouse effect. What it does do is fool people into thinking that catalytic converters make their cars use friendly so they use them more freely, releasing more CO2 to nip down to the shop rather than walk.

Add to this that catalytic converters are not effective until they're hot - ie about 10 minutes hard driving down a motorway, and you'll see that most of the time, for most journeys (short) their detrimental effects could well outweigh their positive effects.

But fuel consumption increases - the oil companies are happy, the mining companies are happy, the motor manufacturers are happy to replace expensive converters when they fail, and governments are happy to acquire fuel duty and taxes on each and every sale.

The same applies to digging out the gear via child labour to make batteries - if you buy an EV you are supporting child abuse tyranny.

You better be on a donkey :celebrate:
 
Just looked him up and despite rea
There was a guy in my field (chemistry) who turned into a climate-change denying clown, but with one very substantial, maybe unique difference - he was a really good scientist. Not an absolute world leader or anything like that, but effectively a genius compared to the baseline cabbages that infest this area - knew nothing about climatology (obviously), but was a genuinely creative person with a strong track record of publishing quality. He was also sharp and charismatic in person and I think could have done quite a bit of damage shilling on this issue - sadly he died a couple of years back just as he was getting a bit of a profile as a denialist - his name was Istvan Marko.

He was a born contrarian - which you need a bit of if you're going to do something serious in science, the courage to challenge accepted wisdom. But he clearly lost the bottle you need to have to keep on the grant-writing treadmill, and decided to take an easier path.
Just looked him up and despite reams of awards, papers and recognition of his work not a single mention of his climate doom skepticism - pure Pravda
 
You've nailed me.

Tbh I need a wheelbarrow to collect my wages sometimes it's so much they pay me in gold bars and I rent a massive flatbed truck with a huge V8 belching out fumes to carry the stuff home. You won't be surprised to learn I make a detour past the asthma clinic to make sure they get a good gobful of fumes whilst shouting "LOOK AT ME I'M LOADED"

#argumentbystereotype

There we have it in black and white folks.

#boughtandpaidfor
 
No, that is called "hard science" as opposed to something more akin to casting the runes

Most skeptics are prepared to accept co2 has the potential to contribute to a changing climate changing but obviously it is the degree under debate and with no observational evidence definitively demonstrating "how much" panic and global policy decisions made on guesswork is risible nonsense. I would add there are pro man made warming advocates now saying the total co2 effect is next to eff all :coffee:

The "97%" meme has been debunked a thousand times
Runes and guesswork? As the saying goes, your inability to understand science is not an argument against it. And it is very obvious you don't understand it. Please stop pretending you do.
 
Runes and guesswork? As the saying goes, your inability to understand science is not an argument against it. And it is very obvious you don't understand it. Please stop pretending you do.
Your opening gambit was to excuse climate science for not being an exact science ergo guesswork MUST figure this is irrefutable logic.

You have no case
 
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