Blue Bill

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joey_macmo said:
Another Source? The other source responded to you because your main point about them being "close buddies" was wrong, hilarious that you speak about fantasies. You've yet to dispute him on his assertion that you're totally wrong on that point.

As for the theatre side everyone in the business knows what he's like, its no secret.
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Someone quoted more detail Joey, that's all. My source would know, without a doubt. The TV presenter guy who was mooted was 'found out' by the City board(source..the City board) and Shiniwatra turned to Mansoor. At the time I was heavily involved in a couple of charities and got to meet people as a result of this...and some have remained friends. The source for this story I still see fairly often.

I'm glad that in reality you know 'what Bill is like' in his main job...most people connected with theatre/films/TV know Bill and what he has done for the industry...he doesn't pay top money, but not working for Bill simply means not working at all,for lots of talented musical theatre and dramatic performers. When Bill was 'landed' with Everton after the Johnson debacle, and there was no one else willing to take Everton on, Bill admitted he had little idea about running a major football club, but there was literally no one else around. He attempted to run Everton in the same way as he ran his successful theatrical business,were one of the main income sources is from 'investors'(angels) who put the money up for new shows, in the hope or with the promise of a return. This is exactly what he tried to do at Everton, using Phil Green,who was already an investor in his theatre shows,and others,and selling them 'the dream' of a successful Everton. This didn't really work out for Bill or Everton, because the money that came into the game just grew beyond sense, and relatively small investments from Bills theatrical mates etc were never going to be enough.The Greggs fortune to quite a large extent, was derived from putting Bills shows into theatres which they bought cheap and refurbished and reopened....as far as GRegg was concerned the KD was just about building another arena/theatre,only bigger. Gregg saw it as profit for Gregg, and little more.(his subsequent flirtation with football,at,I think,Sheffield Wednesday, was a disaster(e.g. there was no profit in it)
BK has made mistakes as chairman, but probably no more than other chairmen in the game....Evertonians see what happens at their club in sharp focus, but do not have the same insight into what is happening at other clubs....I expect most chairmen are unjustly hated to a degree.

The usual suspects will never have a good word to say about BK, but I suspect that history will treat him more fairly, and with a decent measure of respect.
 
Steve Wigan said:
Someone quoted more detail Joey, that's all. My source would know, without a doubt. The TV presenter guy who was mooted was 'found out' by the City board(source..the City board) and Shiniwatra turned to Mansoor. At the time I was heavily involved in a couple of charities and got to meet people as a result of this...and some have remained friends. The source for this story I still see fairly often.

I'm glad that in reality you know 'what Bill is like' in his main job...most people connected with theatre/films/TV know Bill and what he has done for the industry...he doesn't pay top money, but not working for Bill simply means not working at all,for lots of talented musical theatre and dramatic performers. When Bill was 'landed' with Everton after the Johnson debacle, and there was no one else willing to take Everton on, Bill admitted he had little idea about running a major football club, but there was literally no one else around. He attempted to run Everton in the same way as he ran his successful theatrical business,were one of the main income sources is from 'investors'(angels) who put the money up for new shows, in the hope or with the promise of a return. This is exactly what he tried to do at Everton, using Phil Green,who was already an investor in his theatre shows,and others,and selling them 'the dream' of a successful Everton. This didn't really work out for Bill or Everton, because the money that came into the game just grew beyond sense, and relatively small investments from Bills theatrical mates etc were never going to be enough.The Greggs fortune to quite a large extent, was derived from putting Bills shows into theatres which they bought cheap and refurbished and reopened....as far as GRegg was concerned the KD was just about building another arena/theatre,only bigger. Gregg saw it as profit for Gregg, and little more.(his subsequent flirtation with football,at,I think,Sheffield Wednesday, was a disaster(e.g. there was no profit in it)
BK has made mistakes as chairman, but probably no more than other chairmen in the game....Evertonians see what happens at their club in sharp focus, but do not have the same insight into what is happening at other clubs....I expect most chairmen are unjustly hated to a degree.

The usual suspects will never have a good word to say about BK, but I suspect that history will treat him more fairly, and with a decent measure of respect.
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I think thats a very good defence Steve and I say that as a firm critic of Kenwright. There's little doubt he stepped in in our hour of need and he probably did so when we would have really struggled. I also think he understood intuitively the football side of operations and his old fashioned outlook both matched and suited where we were as a club. Had we have had an owner like Johnson going through managers every couple of years I suspect we'd be where another of similar sized clubs (in terms of Turnover) are now. His stuck with Moyes, and while there was never any major criticism for him to go (other than a vocal minority) he always made it clear Moyes stayed and Moyes built the club. He also put resources into the academy which was a prudent move. All of this came from a kind of instinctive old fashioned football outlook.

I suppose I always felt he was distorting information to fans either directly or via a conduit of his CEO's. That's what bugged me the most that I just didn't think he was being honest. You are right, in the profession he's in, the skill of "working" the audience is inherent and I felt he was trying to work Evertonian's most of the time. Little things like having no idea where 20% of the turnover went (the Other operating costs) and couldn't see it was a problem when it had risen by something like 500% in his time in charge was a major alarm bell.

This may be harsh on him and a bit of 2+2=34 but I felt by the end he was happy to coast and create the illusion of progress. He had a string of CEO's who would regularly talk Everton down. They created a "plucky little Everton" myth that was trotted out by his manager, CEO and key staff who treated fans as if we should be grateful to be in the Premier League and any ambition above that was part of the problem. The case could be made it was a situation out of his control, but I think he gladly went along with it. It kept a lot of fans off his back and he could caste himself as the role of key saviour in this narrative.

While we faced many problems as a business we massively stagnated in that period. It wasn't that he didn't manage to grow the business, but it was we seemed to have no plan or desire too. Elstone would come out to the fans and tell us what an amazing job he did as turnover rose, without putting the crucial information our commercial revenues flatlined well below any of our rivals and were overtaken year on year, and the turnover increase was primarily down to sky money or astute playing trading thanks to a manager who could improve players. As that culture was left unchecked you do wonder what message was being given from Kenwright on the whole that Elstone felt so brazen to go on the offensive.

That being said we will always be led back to your first point, which is notably that Kenwright ultimately didn't really want the club or know how to run it. Whether history views him kindly or not I suppose will depend on your initial opinion of him!
 
catcherintherye said:
I think thats a very good defence Steve and I say that as a firm critic of Kenwright. There's little doubt he stepped in in our hour of need and he probably did so when we would have really struggled. I also think he understood intuitively the football side of operations and his old fashioned outlook both matched and suited where we were as a club. Had we have had an owner like Johnson going through managers every couple of years I suspect we'd be where another of similar sized clubs (in terms of Turnover) are now. His stuck with Moyes, and while there was never any major criticism for him to go (other than a vocal minority) he always made it clear Moyes stayed and Moyes built the club. He also put resources into the academy which was a prudent move. All of this came from a kind of instinctive old fashioned football outlook.

I suppose I always felt he was distorting information to fans either directly or via a conduit of his CEO's. That's what bugged me the most that I just didn't think he was being honest. You are right, in the profession he's in, the skill of "working" the audience is inherent and I felt he was trying to work Evertonian's most of the time. Little things like having no idea where 20% of the turnover went (the Other operating costs) and couldn't see it was a problem when it had risen by something like 500% in his time in charge was a major alarm bell.

This may be harsh on him and a bit of 2+2=34 but I felt by the end he was happy to coast and create the illusion of progress. He had a string of CEO's who would regularly talk Everton down. They created a "plucky little Everton" myth that was trotted out by his manager, CEO and key staff who treated fans as if we should be grateful to be in the Premier League and any ambition above that was part of the problem. The case could be made it was a situation out of his control, but I think he gladly went along with it. It kept a lot of fans off his back and he could caste himself as the role of key saviour in this narrative.

While we faced many problems as a business we massively stagnated in that period. It wasn't that he didn't manage to grow the business, but it was we seemed to have no plan or desire too. Elstone would come out to the fans and tell us what an amazing job he did as turnover rose, without putting the crucial information our commercial revenues flatlined well below any of our rivals and were overtaken year on year, and the turnover increase was primarily down to sky money or astute playing trading thanks to a manager who could improve players. As that culture was left unchecked you do wonder what message was being given from Kenwright on the whole that Elstone felt so brazen to go on the offensive.

That being said we will always be led back to your first point, which is notably that Kenwright ultimately didn't really want the club or know how to run it. Whether history views him kindly or not I suppose will depend on your initial opinion of him!
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Thanks for the reasoned, non hysterical response! I think that as Bill K got older he lost a little of his 'magic', and his progressing illness probably did not help either. I know that theatrically he tends to play safer these days, relying on guaranteed ticket sellers,his only dodgy effort in the last few years being The Glenn Miller Story, with his good mate Tommy Steele,which did a few dates and was pulled(Tommys cracking on a bit too!) There are some parallels to both of Bills 'jobs'....He could sell the dream of a stage show and squeeze every drop from the sale, and he has always been pretty good at getting top money for Everton when selling some frankly quite average players. Bill to a large extent, in an imperfect world, was the right man for Everton, but he has now quite rightly moved over.
 
Kenwright has been very low key this summer.

He would normally have been seen grinning like a Cheshire Cat after spending a few quid.
 
Kenwright is a romantic. That's both his strength and his weakness. You can't have one without the other. Personally I think he's been more good than bad. In the age of mercenary owners, he gets Everton and that's worth a lot. His speech at Anfield to the Hillsborough families couldn't have been given by anyone else.
 
Papa Shango said:
How is it? Mortgage our future on a one off game against a very strong side. These better players would require big wages etc too for 5 years or whatever.

What you are suggesting is football manager stuff with no basis in reality. Look at what happened to Leeds when they mortgaged their future on a bit of fleeting success.
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I'm glad someone has brought that up.
 
TyphooToffee said:
Yep, empty vessels make the most sound.
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Ha.

The general defence the Kenwright backers have is 'But look at Leeds! But look at Portsmouth!'

It's never 'Look at Chelsea! or 'Look at City!' or 'Look at Arsenal!'.

The man is a blatant liar.

I'm amazed Goodison is still standing, Kenwright said it was losing it's safety certificate years ago. Care to explain that one?

The man was going to move us to a flat pack stadium in a Tesco car park and even then it got laughed off by the government.

As I've said, he is a stain on our proud history. Hopefully it can be rubbed out in the coming years.
 
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