Current Affairs Anti-fascists (antifa), and a nationwide resistance of hate.

[Blue 1]

That's quite a statement! You got evidence of this? Personally I support the Palestinians and have been disgusted at the inhumane methods of Israeli 'defence'. Abby Martin does good work uncovering how the Israeli culture sees such things.

Shapiro's views on Muslims are clearly prejudiced and far too simplified for someone who normally used solid detail in his arguments. He's got a blind spot there (as a Jew himself, likely). I've seen him support the official Israeli policy of 'self-defence', tho' that's too much of a stretch if you mean he supports their genocide and thus deserves a punch in the face. Unless you mean something else he said?

"The "road map" was doomed from the start. The Arab enmity for Jews and the state of Israel allows for no peace process. [....] Half measures merely postpone our realization that the Arabs dream of Israel's destruction. Without drastic measures, the Arab dream will come true. In the short term, the establishment of a "Palestinian state" based in Judea, Samaria and Gaza cuts Israel to the bone. In some places, Israel would be an unthinkable 9 miles wide. In the long term, the growth of the hostile Israeli-Arab population within pre-1967 Israel bodes ill for the future of the Jewish state. As University of Haifa professor Arnon Soffer says, "The trends and indicators all point to an economic and ecological catastrophe waiting to happen and of the death knell of the ideological dream of a Jewish state." Here is the bottom line: If you believe that the Jewish state has a right to exist, then you must allow Israel to transfer the Palestinians and the Israeli-Arabs from Judea, Samaria, Gaza and Israel proper. It's an ugly solution, but it is the only solution. And it is far less ugly than the prospect of bloody conflict ad infinitum. When two populations are constantly enmeshed in conflict, it is insane to suggest that somehow deep-seated ideological change will miraculously occur, allowing the two sides to live together". - Ben Shapiro, 2003.

Anyway, balls to getting into a discussion about that utter empty vessel and professional idiot.

 

[Number_25]

This thread has made me lose whatever fate I had in humanity.

Good job everyone.

 

[The binman chronicles]

Not entirely true. Last years unite the right rally in Charlottesville drew hundreds of open neo nazis. This years unite the right rally drew 21 people with many admitting they didn't attend because they didn't feel safe due to Antifa. This is one example of Antifas militant tactics actually working.

Hardly anyone turned up and thus their rally/message got no coverage in the media.

Sounds to me like it's just kicking the can down the road. Do you think those people have just given up their right wing views? Pushing them underground is probably just going to cause them to pop up somewhere else in greater numbers as the more one side is visible spouting their guff the more people are going to want to join the other side.

 

[Tubey]

Not entirely true. Last years unite the right rally in Charlottesville drew hundreds of open neo nazis. This years unite the right rally drew 21 people with many admitting they didn't attend because they didn't feel safe due to Antifa. This is one example of Antifas militant tactics actually working.

Hardly anyone turned up and thus their rally/message got no coverage in the media.

Great, so the inference is that you've forced them underground a bit by denying them free speech due to the threat of violence.

So you've just made them sympathetic figures to a wider audience and increased the likelihood of their numbers growing exponentially as they've been legitimised.

It simply doesn't work mate. The reason they do their stupid rallies is because they have no other voice because society rightly thinks they're man-babies. But if you squash that and give them a platform by doing so, you do more for them than there echo chamber shouting at their own little rallies could have ever done.

 

[ilikecheese]

your comment makes no sense. What are you trying to say?

Seems you side with anti immigration and keeping them separate.

 

[dholliday]

"The "road map" was doomed from the start. The Arab enmity for Jews and the state of Israel allows for no peace process. [....] Half measures merely postpone our realization that the Arabs dream of Israel's destruction. Without drastic measures, the Arab dream will come true. In the short term, the establishment of a "Palestinian state" based in Judea, Samaria and Gaza cuts Israel to the bone. In some places, Israel would be an unthinkable 9 miles wide. In the long term, the growth of the hostile Israeli-Arab population within pre-1967 Israel bodes ill for the future of the Jewish state. As University of Haifa professor Arnon Soffer says, "The trends and indicators all point to an economic and ecological catastrophe waiting to happen and of the death knell of the ideological dream of a Jewish state." Here is the bottom line: If you believe that the Jewish state has a right to exist, then you must allow Israel to transfer the Palestinians and the Israeli-Arabs from Judea, Samaria, Gaza and Israel proper. It's an ugly solution, but it is the only solution. And it is far less ugly than the prospect of bloody conflict ad infinitum. When two populations are constantly enmeshed in conflict, it is insane to suggest that somehow deep-seated ideological change will miraculously occur, allowing the two sides to live together". - Ben Shapiro, 2003.

Anyway, balls to getting into a discussion about that utter empty vessel and professional idiot.

I see your point. The other people I mentioned are far less dodgy.

I'm aware of his "transfer" article he wrote when he was 18. I can understand why you'd equate that to supporting genocide, despite his protestations in the same article ("Jews are not Nazis. Transfer is not genocide").

We quickly end up in an endless war of words, but if we give him the benefit of the doubt, he's advocating removing (as in not murdering) Arabs from a jewish state because he believes they pose a violent threat to that state. I admit it's racist, even borders on nazism. In the same article Shapiro mock-ingeniously tells us this:

"For anyone who lived through the Holocaust, or who has relatives who died in it, being called a Nazi is unspeakably terrible. That is the secret weapon of the Arabs. Any time the Jews get wise and threaten mass expulsion of Arabs, the Arabs pull out their big stick, equating Nazism with Zionism. Their cartoons merge swastikas with stars of David. Their newspapers call Ariel Sharon another Adolf Hitler. Their spokespeople cry "Genocide!" And the Jews cower in fear that they could be equated with their parents' murderers."

But as we know anyone who criticises such Israeli views are damned as anti-semitic.

We're clearly not getting anywhere by warring with hidden meaning behind words, and we'll only go to Hell faster if we start punching each other (i.e. actual war where people die).

Here's the bit from the UN definition of "Genocide" which supports your argument regarding Shapiro's teenage angst (and even glances upon recent Trump policy):

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

 

[Number_25]

We really are doomed, aren't we?

 

[dholliday]

Seems you side with anti immigration and keeping them separate.

Where do you get that idea?

 

[dholliday]

We really are [Poor language removed], aren't we?

We won't be if we stop consuming 2-minute hate sessions. They're addictive, the opium of the people even, but I do fine without them and so do thankfully most real people I meet, from all kinds of backgrounds.

 

[Number_25]

Just to roll the conversation back a bit.

One of the things I've seen most echo'ed is the equalisation of anti-fascist groups, and the extreme right.

The extreme right want ethnic cleansing.

The anti-fascists want not that.

 

[longers]

So you've just made them sympathetic figures to a wider audience and increased the likelihood of their numbers growing exponentially as they've been legitimised.

You think the average person feels sympathetic towards white supermacists because they can no longer walk down the street preaching about white power and being genetically superior ?

That massively reducing their numbers at rallies and thus reducing the press they get is actually legitimising them and increasing their numbers and reach ?

The alt right movement has died on its arse since Charlottesville, the exact opposite outcome of what you're claiming will happen.

 

[roydo]

Just to roll the conversation back a bit.

One of the things I've seen most echo'ed is the equalisation of anti-fascist groups, and the extreme right.

The extreme right want ethnic cleansing.

The anti-fascists want not that.

Well I am not that arsed about extreme left or extreme right. Both a bunch of loony tunes.

 

[dholliday]

The extreme right want ethnic cleansing.

You're gonna have to be more specific. Who wants that exactly? As above, Israeli policy borders on wanting that if we assume it wants to remove all Arabs from its state. Who else? Many Arab, African, Indian & Pakistani groups have such beliefs of ethnic cleansing against each other: Sunni vs Shia, caste systems, tribal strifes etc.

Do you mean Far-Right groups in Western societies? Can you identify one which, in your words, want ethnic cleansing? I bet some of the more hateful inhuman types who hang around in St******nt forums do. How big a deal are they in the grand scheme of things, tho' ?

 

[Number_25]

Well I am not that arsed about extreme left or extreme right. Both a bunch of loony tunes.

Not wanting ethnic cleansing makes you a looney lefties?

 

[dholliday]

@Number_25 here is a list of ethnic cleansing incidents of the 2010's.




You'll note the lack of Western countries involved.

Sure, history has some awful things happening here in the West. And sure, we still have some bad apples. But we could do with also celebrating how well we're doing in relation to the rest of the world. England & Germany, in particularly, have much reason to be very proud of how relatively peaceful our multi-cultural societies are, even amongst all these hate sessions we keep reading about.