A Case for the Defence

[summerisle]

 

[Thomasc]

Regarding your closing question sir!

We are only better off now going forward as Sky have increased the money and Bill had finally found an investor. None of this has anything to do with bobby IMO.

We seem to have better players than we had 4 years ago, yet they still get worst results. You can put that down to the league strengthening considerably I guess and being more even than ever for years before, or he is just bobbins!

The problem is it is all still a little unclear at present. If I was on a jury, I wouldn't be able to send him to the chair, but I wouldn't want him back and free in society either.

 

[Clem Fandango]

Surely you're part of a shrinking minority mate.

 

[Eric Djemba-Djemba]

Despite what some of Roberto’s more stalwart supporters (davek) might say, I don’t think it can be denied that there is real pressure on him between now and the end of the season. After almost 2 seasons of poor results, I couldn’t blame anyone for casting their eyes elsewhere for a manager who could unlock the reserves of potential we have undoubtedly accumulated.

I’m in a growing minority now, and it’s not the usual white noise of post-loss kneejerkism shouting us down in the match threads, but a stereo blast of genuine, consistently held concerns about Martinez’ stewardship.

For my part, I was close to wanting him out around January last season, when our poor run of results was compounded by a seemingly unending sequence of dour performances. I wanted to give him until Christmas this season, and while we continued to chalk up way too many numbers in the draw column, I felt we were tangibly closer to something special, as our performances yielded goals and an exciting vision of our on-field potential. But that promise still hasn’t delivered.

Realistically, all our hopes are belong to the FA Cup. Win it, he buys some time, lose it and he may well be walking, barring a serious upturn of form between now and season’s end. Even winning it won’t be good enough for some.

Personally, I think calls to sack him now are insane. Even detractors have to admit that he has strengthened the squad considerably and, in my mind, has laid some incredible groundwork for a unified, attractive style of football that could very well outlast his tenure here. For his signings, his impeccable conduct and, yes, that first season, I think he has bought himself the right to at least finish what he started in this year’s FA Cup. By April, I might well be flexible enough to add my voice to the choir if we fall short in both our remaining journeys.

But until then, I really believe we can achieve something under this manager, and it saddens me to see that so many people have effectively given up, demanding blood after every single poor result and seemingly revelling in the plight of their own team if it pushes Martinez closer to the exit door. Some can’t even bring themselves to credit a good performance if the result is anything less than a win. We’re morphing into indulged Geordies at a rate that brings tears to a glass eye. Get behind your team for the remainder of the season because, at the very least, he won’t be going anywhere before then.

To close, I’d like to pose a question, and I’ll paraphrase the American Republican party a few years ago. Disregarding results and table place (I know there’s some who can’t), and speaking only in terms of long-term indicators like structure, finances, squad development, new talent and a lasting impact on the character and style of our football...

Are we better off now than we were 4 seasons ago?

I thought it was a good piece, even if I disagree until this paragraph. It's poor to accuse people that aren't happy as revelling in the plight of their own team and saying that these people are morphing into Geordies.

 

[BluePeadar]

If you are going to work this as an analogy, a review of the following video may be in order. Somewhere along the way many of this worked it out in our own minds, but didn't chart it. We want a boss manager like we want a hot stunner.

The chart may help, because we all absorb knowledge in different ways. Where is Alex Ferguson on this chart? Jose Mourinho? Pep Guardiola?

Where is Everton on the cute/money matrix? This will clarify things for most.

also - Don't go all crazy because you see a gun, okay? (shakes head, walks away)

Wow that escalated quickly
Thanks for the video link, I see Tranny there which gets me going , I love radios

 

[Prevenger17]

I thought it was a good piece, even if I disagree until this paragraph. It's poor to accuse people that aren't happy as revelling in the plight of their own team and saying that these people are morphing into Geordies.

Yeah, but you have to add the bit of spice in there. That's showbusiness, Eric

*winks

 

[silent bob]

Are we better off now than we were 4 seasons ago?

For me it`s yes AND no, and therein lies the dichotomy of his tenure.
Yes, the average age, the talent in and overall depth of the squad is better.
Yes, the style of play going forward is greatly improved.
Yes, a policy of signing promising young players who may make the step up to first team sooner rather than later is to be applauded.
Yes, the clubs finances have improved and hopefully with the new invetment will improve much further but how much of that can be credited to the manager is open to debate.

However there is the other side of the coin.
The gradual erosion of the teams ability to defend, whether from set pieces or open play is worrying.
A seemingly stubborn reluctance to acknowledge, let alone rectify these problems is also worrying.
A somewhat laissez faire attitude to building up required fitness levels in pre season.
Tactical naivety and baffling use and non use of substitutions.
For all his faults, OFM never told me as a fan the team were phenomenal when my own eyes have told me the exact opposite.

The above are just my own thoughts on the matter and anyone is free to agree or disagree with them as they see fit.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Yes, but the second question is how much of that is down to Martinez? Almost every club outside the elite will answer yes to this question.

TV money has opened up a whole market of players to mid level premier league clubs that we could only dream of 5 years ago. Moyes could not have spent 30 mill on Lukaku nor sanctioned expensive loan deals, large fees for McCarthy and Niasse, expensive punts on Besic and Deulofeu.

Also what it has done is ballooned the value of genuine premier league talent. Whereas a top young English player 5 years ago would be valued at 20 mill with even the most exceptional like Rooney going for 30, the top players now Barkley Stones Sterling Alli could command in excess of 50 million with ease. Same is true for other young talent, Lukaku could go for 60 million the same price Kaka one of the world's top players at the time went to Madrid in 09.

So our balance sheet is far better and Martinez has boosted that by spending big on young talent and letting their value rise.

In almost every other aspect: league position, European exposure, draw to top players, fitness, defence, team spirit, club unity we have gone backwards.

The sheer weight of the financial surge though has tipped this answer into a yes. That does not mean Martinez deserves to keep his post though.

 

[ilikecheese]

Yes.

We actually have a chance of winning something...we never did 4 years ago...or the previous 10.

 

[oldblue]

Despite what some of Roberto’s more stalwart supporters (davek) might say, I don’t think it can be denied that there is real pressure on him between now and the end of the season. After almost 2 seasons of poor results, I couldn’t blame anyone for casting their eyes elsewhere for a manager who could unlock the reserves of potential we have undoubtedly accumulated.

I’m in a growing minority now, and it’s not the usual white noise of post-loss kneejerkism shouting us down in the match threads, but a stereo blast of genuine, consistently held concerns about Martinez’ stewardship.

For my part, I was close to wanting him out around January last season, when our poor run of results was compounded by a seemingly unending sequence of dour performances. I wanted to give him until Christmas this season, and while we continued to chalk up way too many numbers in the draw column, I felt we were tangibly closer to something special, as our performances yielded goals and an exciting vision of our on-field potential. But that promise still hasn’t delivered.

Realistically, all our hopes are belong to the FA Cup. Win it, he buys some time, lose it and he may well be walking, barring a serious upturn of form between now and season’s end. Even winning it won’t be good enough for some.

Personally, I think calls to sack him now are insane. Even detractors have to admit that he has strengthened the squad considerably and, in my mind, has laid some incredible groundwork for a unified, attractive style of football that could very well outlast his tenure here. For his signings, his impeccable conduct and, yes, that first season, I think he has bought himself the right to at least finish what he started in this year’s FA Cup. By April, I might well be flexible enough to add my voice to the choir if we fall short in both our remaining journeys.

But until then, I really believe we can achieve something under this manager, and it saddens me to see that so many people have effectively given up, demanding blood after every single poor result and seemingly revelling in the plight of their own team if it pushes Martinez closer to the exit door. Some can’t even bring themselves to credit a good performance if the result is anything less than a win. We’re morphing into indulged Geordies at a rate that brings tears to a glass eye. Get behind your team for the remainder of the season because, at the very least, he won’t be going anywhere before then.

To close, I’d like to pose a question, and I’ll paraphrase the American Republican party a few years ago. Disregarding results and table place (I know there’s some who can’t), and speaking only in terms of long-term indicators like structure, finances, squad development, new talent and a lasting impact on the character and style of our football...

Are we better off now than we were 4 seasons ago?

Brilliant. It's gutting when we lose but it's been a lot worse in the past feeling like there's no hope of doing anything but scrapping out some dour results.
It's frustrating definitely but we can't go into every game thinking the manager is not allowed bad luck, poor refereeing decisions or even a gamble that didn't come off whether there's signs of improvement or not

 

[Prevenger17]

the top players now Barkley Stones Sterling Alli could command in excess of 50 million with ease.

Right, but we haven't sold any of our big players under Martinez and have brought in the likes of Deulofeu for 2 million and Aaron Lennon and Besic for chips. Lukaku is our only big money signing, and he's been an unmitigated success. Do you think Martinez should get any credit for fending off interest for Stones in the summer? For having a squad that is now worth hundreds of millions? Is that all just a coincidence or can we credit him with some part in the development that has seen the likes of Lukaku, Stones and Barkley become such sought after assets?

 

[Prevenger17]

Yes, but the second question is how much of that is down to Martinez? Almost every club outside the elite will answer yes to this question.

TV money has opened up a whole market of players to mid level premier league clubs that we could only dream of 5 years ago. Moyes could not have spent 30 mill on Lukaku nor sanctioned expensive loan deals, large fees for McCarthy and Niasse, expensive punts on Besic and Deulofeu.

Also what it has done is ballooned the value of genuine premier league talent. Whereas a top young English player 5 years ago would be valued at 20 mill with even the most exceptional like Rooney going for 30, the top players now Barkley Stones Sterling Alli could command in excess of 50 million with ease. Same is true for other young talent, Lukaku could go for 60 million the same price Kaka one of the world's top players at the time went to Madrid in 09.

So our balance sheet is far better and Martinez has boosted that by spending big on young talent and letting their value rise.

In almost every other aspect: league position, European exposure, draw to top players, fitness, defence, team spirit, club unity we have gone backwards.

The sheer weight of the financial surge though has tipped this answer into a yes. That does not mean Martinez deserves to keep his post though.

Right, but we haven't sold any of our big players under Martinez and have brought in the likes of Deulofeu for 2 million and Aaron Lennon and Besic for chips. Lukaku is our only big money signing, and he's been an unmitigated success. Do you think Martinez should get any credit for fending off interest for Stones in the summer? For having a squad that is now worth hundreds of millions? Is that all just a coincidence or can we credit him with some part in the development that has seen the likes of Lukaku, Stones and Barkley become such sought after assets?

Sorry Domingo, you had actually pretty much answered my question now that I think about it.

 

[blue61]

For me it`s yes AND no, and therein lies the dichotomy of his tenure.
Yes, the average age, the talent in and overall depth of the squad is better.
Yes, the style of play going forward is greatly improved.
Yes, a policy of signing promising young players who may make the step up to first team sooner rather than later is to be applauded.
Yes, the clubs finances have improved and hopefully with the new invetment will improve much further but how much of that can be credited to the manager is open to debate.

However there is the other side of the coin.
The gradual erosion of the teams ability to defend, whether from set pieces or open play is worrying.
A seemingly stubborn reluctance to acknowledge, let alone rectify these problems is also worrying.
A somewhat laissez faire attitude to building up required fitness levels in pre season.
Tactical naivety and baffling use and non use of substitutions.
For all his faults, OFM never told me as a fan the team were phenomenal when my own eyes have told me the exact opposite.

The above are just my own thoughts on the matter and anyone is free to agree or disagree with them as they see fit.

A very accurate post in my opinion. Martinez has put together a very talented group of players but has shown no sign of being able to turn them into a winning team for nearly 2 years. I'm sure a manager with a better pedigree than him would have us fighting at the top end of the table with this squad. With the prospect of decent investment on the horizon, we should be looking for a manager with the competence to have us competing at a higher and more consistent level. I really like Martinez as a man, but then I liked Mike Walker too, unfortunately, the guy is just not willing or capable of adapting his style to manage a game from a winning position, and for that reason he should go.

 

[loooweee]

We are everton, not some guy with insecurity issues, we deserve better end of.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Sorry Domingo, you had actually pretty much answered my question now that I think about it.

It is a mystery to me though why a manager who is obviously adept at bringing in quality players cannot translate that into success on the pitch. You see our team sheets some weeks and it's brilliant yet for some reason the consistency of results elude him.