Current Affairs 2020 Democratic Primary

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I'm not sure I've ever stated anything to the contrary?

Old posh white ladies are important in the Democratic Party, but they are hardly the only constituency that matters. And electability is a consideration in every primary - or, more accurately, "perceived electability".

The trouble with old posh white ladies however is that in addition to generally bad politics, they also tend to have very poor perceptions of 'electability', as we might recall from such elections as "the one that Hillary Clinton lost to Donald Trump".

In fact, the only time the Democratic Party has had any real national success in the past twenty years is when a coalition of young people, progressives, and ethnic minorities teamed up to ignore the electability pleas of old posh white ladies, and nominated Barack Obama instead.

To believe that Joe Biden represents the most electable Democrat is to take at face value his claim that Donald Trump is no more than a strange and unfortunate mistake that happened for no real reason other than the mysterious whims of the heavens, and that what struggling families crave more than anything else is a return to 7 November 2016, when America was already great because the President was somebody who knew what food to serve sports teams, or how to stage a photo-op in a tractor in the appropriate manner.

This is not a bet that anybody should feel comfortable placing.



Touché. I'm still right though :p



I think you're right. Biden is a very weak candidate, with a track record of having been wrong on just about every important issue since he came to power. His own staff know this, which is why they are doing everything they can to limit his exposure. And, exactly like Trump, he has nothing to offer but tawdry nostalgia, albeit of a different if no less delusional flavour.

It would not be at all surprising if he plummeted after a weak debate performance. His purported 'electability' has not been subject to any serious scrutiny, and it is still very early in the campaign. Few people are paying attention yet. To a large extent, Biden leads in the polls because everybody knows that the media is talking about the fact that he leads in the polls. He is also performing far worse in Iowa (tied with Sanders, according to the latest) and New Hampshire (where he trails Bernie in the most thorough recent poll) than he is nationally, and if he doesn't win those then his electability claim - his only political asset - ends then and there. Keep in mind, for instance, that Obama polled at 3% nationally among African-Americans before he won Iowa, whereupon their support for him overnight became all but unanimous. The reverse can happen just as quickly.

On the other hand, Biden could well end up winning this thing. Democrats are certainly not above putting terrible people like him in power.

And to be sure, setting aside 'electability', perceived and otherwise, there is little doubt that a Biden Presidency, in the not at all certain event that he defeats Trump, would be a disaster for the United States and the rest of the planet.

The day he wins the nomination is the day that every single idea that Elizabeth Warren has ever had dies stillborn - which is why her informed supporters (as opposed to those who like her in the manner of their favourite Love Island candidate) will be doing everything in their power to stop Biden while there is still a chance, rather than invoking the Democrat equivalent of the "but her emails!" defence and excusing him on the grounds that he is less horrendous than Donald Trump, as though that doesn't go without saying.

If Biden wins then it is very likely that just about Trump policy becomes permanent. The wars in Yemen and Afghanistan drag on, the tax cuts for billionaires remain, environmental regulations stay repealed, the Paris commitments are no less ignored, and the fleeting hopes of doing something meaningful about climate change die on the vine. Labour continues to wither, corporate consolidation marches on, Warren's CFPB is still toothless, drug prices and health insurance premiums remain exorbitant, student debt expands, housing and childcare costs keep soaring, the healthcare horror stories which you all love using as a club to bash Trump with continue apace, and there will likely be no more than cosmetic modifications at the border.

Frankly, I'm not sure how many identitarian Democrats will even notice (and if anyone suggests that the new governing party might share responsibility, a Pavlovian chorus of "BUT DONALD TRUMP!!!" will no doubt follow).

Politics these days is mostly abstract to many of those who are most engaged with it. The consequences of politics for everyday people are very much secondary; what motivates much of the discussion instead is tribal identity and moral preening, such that any criticism of one's team feels personal, and emotionally triggering.

I suspect many of those who identify emotionally with the Democrats - not to name names :p - will actually find themselves oddly more comfortable with Trump in the White House; after all, he's not actually done anything yet that affects them personally, and with him there, one's personal virtue, and ability to be Right About Things on the Internet, has never felt easier or more certain.

But if Biden wins, these same people will feel themselves strangely accountable for issues on which, whilst in opposition, they could be certain they stood on the right side of history, without ever actually needing to solve. Likewise, they will find themselves compelled to react defensively to a Biden government's inevitable failures, and regard criticism of even a man as thoroughly corrupt and cynical as he is to be a bewildering and inexplicable personal attack.
I think the difference is I am refering to a broader demographic to watch than just “old posh white ladies” - across income groups and especially, as I stated in my original hypothesis, older African American women as I feel their votes will be determinative in who wins the Southern states.

Doing well in Iowa is important, as you mention it was Obama winning that state that gave him a huge advantage against Clinton as it eased any doubts whether he was electable in the predominantly white Mid-West, but the Southern states is where Clinton beat Sanders last time and I feel Biden starts out with the same advantage and the other candidates currently don’t seem to be making much of a dent in it despite Biden’s obvious weaknesses as a candidate. That could well change at the debates but I think it a tad dangerous for the other candidates to assume it will - I am slightly surprised that the other candidates have not been highlighting Biden’s issues more forcefully to date.

I can’t help but notice that the way you refer to current Biden voters seems very similar to how many Clinton voters (and more importantly Clinton and her campaign) talked about initial Trump supporters. At least in the Clinton case I feel it was a barrier to acknowledging there were some concerns of those voters that Trump addressed that Clinton should have found an effective message to counter earlier - either to push back forcefully on the underlying premise and seek to change minds or to explain how her plans addressed those concerns more effectively.
 
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You just seemed to be making a point that everyone already got

Right. As opposed to your, say, 2000+ or so most recent posts about Trump? ; )

Believe it or not, when I read something about how Biden is terrible, my immediate thought is not "Ah, but he is not @Ruairi77's first choice, so it will all be okay".

It is more like "Holy [Poor language removed], Biden is terrible, and these morons might actually choose him".

It was different to your posts on Beto and Pete, which were interesting even if I partly disagree.

I regret that you were not 100% satisfied with your most recent experience. Please enjoy this and all my subsequent posts with my compliments.

Also, why not just reply to my post rather than sniping in a reply to another poster?

Is that bad etiquette? My post was very long already, but sorry then, if you like. You seemed to find it easily enough....

I think the difference is I am refering to a broader demographic to watch than just “old posh white ladies” - across income groups and especially, as I stated in my original hypothesis, older African American women as I feel their votes will be determinative in who wins the Southern states.

Doing well in Iowa is important, as you mention it was Obama winning that state that gave him a huge advantage against Clinton as it eased any doubts whether he was electable in the predominantly white Mid-West, but the Southern states is where Clinton beat Sanders last time and I feel Biden starts out with the same advantage and the other candidates currently don’t seem to be making much of a dent in it despite Biden’s obvious weaknesses as a candidate. That could well change at the debates but I think it a tad dangerous for the other candidates to assume it will - I am slightly surprised that the other candidates have not been highlighting Biden’s issues more forcefully to date.

Oh, right. Well, sure, older women matter then, in that, along with older men, younger women, and younger men, they are by definition a quarter of the electorate.

But I don't actually think that's a coherent demographic. Older women in Bel Air are very different than older women in rural Iowa, who are in turn very different than older women in Charleston, South Carolina.

I can’t help but notice that the way you refer to current Biden voters seems very similar to how many Clinton voters (and more importantly Clinton and her campaign) talked about initial Trump supporters. At least in the Clinton case I feel it was a barrier to acknowledging there were some concerns of those voters that Trump addressed that Clinton should have found an effective message to counter earlier - either to push back forcefully on the underlying premise and seek to change minds or to explain how her plans addressed those concerns more effectively.

I'm not sure I follow? Apart from my Aunt, who I reserve the right to lament, I don't think I mentioned Biden voters?

In any case, Sanders and Warren are very much attempting to court them. The Sanders team has been active in the South and the Midwest basically non-stop since 2016. Warren less so, because she has less interest in movement-based politics, but there is still plently of time. It might not work, but if it fails, it won't be for lack of effort. As for posh old white ladies in Bel Air, a win for either Sanders or Warren would make them slightly less posh old while ladies, but neither have been shy about articulating a moral case for supporting them nonetheless. Promising to make them even more posh white ladies instead might be one way of acknowledging that there are some concerns of those voters that Biden addresses, but they can't well do that without compromising the strategic and moral basis of their appeal to everyone else :p

In any case, the debate and early results will do far more to determine whether Biden seems electable than anything Sanders or Warren can do or say to people who will vote solely on that basis, which, as far as I'm aware, is the only reason other than a vague sense of familiarity why anyone could be considering voting for Biden.
 
Pls refrain from using this emoji pls

Sigh.... everyone's a critic

536e4519119661a5db785b42bfacdd85.png
 
Oh, right. Well, sure, older women matter then, in that, along with older men, younger women, and younger men, they are by definition a quarter of the electorate.

But I don't actually think that's a coherent demographic. Older women in Bel Air are very different than older women in rural Iowa, who are in turn very different than older women in Charleston, South Carolina.



I'm not sure I follow? Apart from my Aunt, who I reserve the right to lament, I don't think I mentioned Biden voters?

In any case, Sanders and Warren are very much attempting to court them. The Sanders team has been active in the South and the Midwest basically non-stop since 2016. Warren less so, because she has less interest in movement-based politics, but there is still plently of time. It might not work, but if it fails, it won't be for lack of effort. As for posh old white ladies in Bel Air, a win for either Sanders or Warren would make them slightly less posh old while ladies, but neither have been shy about articulating a moral case for supporting them nonetheless. Promising to make them even more posh white ladies instead might be one way of acknowledging that there are some concerns of those voters that Biden addresses, but they can't well do that without compromising the strategic and moral basis of their appeal to everyone else :p

In any case, the debate and early results will do far more to determine whether Biden seems electable than anything Sanders or Warren can do or say to people who will vote solely on that basis, which, as far as I'm aware, is the only reason other than a vague sense of familiarity why anyone could be considering voting for Biden.
Ha, yes although to be picky about it older women make up a larger share than quarter of the actual voters as a) iirc women are more likely to vote than men b) we tend to live longer than our male contemporaries! It is also particularly relevant in the primaries as older voters, at least historically, have voted at a higher rate than younger ones.

I agree that “older women” are perhaps not naturally a coherent group but that is what I find interesting about their very high support for Biden (and older men too for that matter). It really is quite a stark difference when you split by age such as this May 21 Quinnipiac poll
Age 18-49 Biden 23% Sanders 23% Warren 18% Harris 9%
Ages > 50 Biden 46% Sanders 8% Warren 9% Harris 8%

Biden’s support doesn’t seem to be by upper income level either
Income <50k Biden 40% Sanders 21% Warren 10% Harris 5%
Income 50-100 Biden 28% Sanders 17% Warren 18% Harris 7%

It was comments such as “On the other hand, if Biden's support among uninformed and/or demented boomers holds” in an earlier post along with the Aunt reference that prompted the suspicion (perhaps unwarranted) that you generally don’t hold this demographic cohort in the highest regard, with the “these morons might actually choose him” as after the fact data :p (sorry Prev but hard to resist the emoji inclusion!)

As to why Biden currently has such high support? I agree that it has a lot to do with perceived electability (I have a whole hypothesis about it lol) and to a lesser extent familiarity although it is notable that both Sanders and Warren have comparatively high unfavourable numbers to Biden despite similar name recognition. However I also think it might have to do with other reasons such as concern on what happens to their medical care under Medicaid for all (“will I keep my doctor that I like”) or how all the programs will be implemented/funded (“how do we afford to give everyone free college?”)
 
Believe it or not, when I read something about how Biden is terrible, my immediate thought is not "Ah, but he is not @Ruairi77's first choice, so it will all be okay".
Fair enough,
I tied your Biden posts in to your reaction to me when I said that a lot of my friends planned to vote for Biden. You proceeded to lecture me on the reasons not to vote for Biden.
I see the Trump thread as a news feed on where we're at with him, to be honest, it's almost like good therapy.
I didn't think we were there with this thread yet.
But hey, if it helps to vent about Biden, O'Rourke, and Buttigeig, have at it.

Anyway, it's Friday and a beautiful day in Boston so have a good weekend man.
 
It is more like "Holy [Poor language removed], Biden is terrible, and these morons might actually choose him".

This sums you up really.

When people disagree with you they are morons. When they don't see it your way even if they haven't even expressed their views in this thread about how they vote you have summarized who they are based on the content posted by them in the POTUS thread.

Even when people have no opinion or have not expressed their opinion on Biden you assume people will vote for him and as such they are morons.

I'm not sure anyone other than @Ruairi77 saying he and his friends might vote for him has anyone else expressed their support for him on here.

The thing is you have an agenda. You clearly only support Sanders and as such you have gone out of your way to find and post only the negative stuff the other 23 candidates have done or have been accused off. About 90% of the links you post are from a pro socialist news agency.

When pointed out Sanders indiscretions or flaws you get defensive and throw out insults.

Whats mad is you compared me to Joey but you are as stubborn and one sided as he is. So when you call me Joey i see you as calling me stupid and well him stupid.

Have you noticed no one really replies to you with the many negative posts you have posted in the last 10 pages or so. Maybe the odd reply from Ruairi and linkerlegs.

honestly i like a lot of the stuff you have posted in the past as you are very well informed and seem knowledgeable. The problem now is you seemingly want to attack other posters because now, they, i guess are not worthy as their views differ from yours.
 
If he can’t qualify for the first debate I doubt it is going to be a long campaign for Seth himself...

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Fair enough,
I tied your Biden posts in to your reaction to me when I said that a lot of my friends planned to vote for Biden. You proceeded to lecture me on the reasons not to vote for Biden.
I acknowledge that I can be cantankerous and overbearing :p (pipe down @Prevenger17!!)
I see the Trump thread as a news feed on where we're at with him, to be honest, it's almost like good therapy.
I didn't think we were there with this thread yet.
But hey, if it helps to vent about Biden, O'Rourke, and Buttigeig, have at it.
We should be there by now in this case too. Imagine a ludicrously corrupt and cynical oaf like Biden representing the second best fate that the United States and all it entails can hope for. Imagine all the energy and potential behind Sanders, Warren, AOC and others culminating in nothing more than his leering sneer.

If we take climate change and inequality (among other concerns) seriously then even the possibility of Biden winning is just about as dreary to encounter as another four years of Trump.

Therapy will be more than justified here too.

Anyway, it's Friday and a beautiful day in Boston so have a good weekend man.

I appreciate the debateably deserved kind wishes, and wish you and @LinekersLegs the same. I had a lovely time out in Kendall of all places last time I was there, and even made a decent evening of it tonight in rainy Yorkshire. Hope you are both having a lovely night too!
 
As to why Biden currently has such high support? I agree that it has a lot to do with perceived electability (I have a whole hypothesis about it lol) and to a lesser extent familiarity although it is notable that both Sanders and Warren have comparatively high unfavourable numbers to Biden despite similar name recognition. However I also think it might have to do with other reasons such as concern on what happens to their medical care under Medicaid for all (“will I keep my doctor that I like”) or how all the programs will be implemented/funded (“how do we afford to give everyone free college?”)

This explains why older people may be reluctant to back Warren or Sanders, but it does not really explain, and certainly does not excuse, their support for Biden, a man who during a full day campaign event in Iowa told attendees that he didn't "have the time" to inform them about his health care plan, and whose response to younger voters' concerns like skyrocketing student debt is "The younger generation now tells me how tough things are. Give me a break. No, no, I have no empathy for it. Give me a break".

You raised the comparison to the Clinton campaign's approach to Trump supporters the other day, in the context of whether Warren and Sanders were doing enough to court Biden's apparent supporters - but of course the flip-side to that means that as with Trump supporters, Biden voters should be held just as accountable for their choices and attitudes, including "the rest of you can go to hell so long as I get my free health care".

Meanwhile, today in The Democratic Party Thinks You Are Stupid And Could Not Care Less About You: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/05/us/politics/amazon-apple-facebook-google-lobbying.html
 
This explains why older people may be reluctant to back Warren or Sanders, but it does not really explain, and certainly does not excuse, their support for Biden, a man who during a full day campaign event in Iowa told attendees that he didn't "have the time" to inform them about his health care plan, and whose response to younger voters' concerns like skyrocketing student debt is "The younger generation now tells me how tough things are. Give me a break. No, no, I have no empathy for it. Give me a break".

You raised the comparison to the Clinton campaign's approach to Trump supporters the other day, in the context of whether Warren and Sanders were doing enough to court Biden's apparent supporters - but of course the flip-side to that means that as with Trump supporters, Biden voters should be held just as accountable for their choices and attitudes, including "the rest of you can go to hell so long as I get my free health care".

Meanwhile, today in The Democratic Party Thinks You Are Stupid And Could Not Care Less About You: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/05/us/politics/amazon-apple-facebook-google-lobbying.html
True and it is one of the reasons that I am still surprised that Harris isn’t doing better. She has her own issues but I thought she would end up being be the default option for those who felt Warren/Sanders were “too far left” but had concerns about Biden. At least so far, older voters don’t seem to have many concerns about Biden, at least not compared with their other myriad choices!

I have no problem with Biden supporters, or any other voters for that matter, being held accountable for their choices/attitudes. It just seemed that Clinton’s dismissal of a lot of Trump potential voters was counter productive and meant she may have missed some opportunities to peel off some of his support - it probably felt good to Hillary to brand a segment as “deplorables” but as a practical matter it probably would have felt even better to have a few of those very same people vote for her and win the presidency.
 
True and it is one of the reasons that I am still surprised that Harris isn’t doing better. She has her own issues but I thought she would end up being be the default option for those who felt Warren/Sanders were “too far left” but had concerns about Biden. At least so far, older voters don’t seem to have many concerns about Biden, at least not compared with their other myriad choices!

I have no problem with Biden supporters, or any other voters for that matter, being held accountable for their choices/attitudes. It just seemed that Clinton’s dismissal of a lot of Trump potential voters was counter productive and meant she may have missed some opportunities to peel off some of his support - it probably felt good to Hillary to brand a segment as “deplorables” but as a practical matter it probably would have felt even better to have a few of those very same people vote for her and win the presidency.

I am surprised by this too - I had expected her against Sanders all along. And this may well yet happen. It is still very early - too early, really, to even be talking about it ; )

Even a Beto revival would not be entirely surprising, now that Biden (thank god) might be starting to run out of steam in Iowa. Beto is still probably more gifted at running in the Meant To Be Seen But Not Heard lane than Buttigieg. Harris will need to sweep the South to be plausible, and probably finish at least third in NH and Iowa, though she plays much better in liberal cities and college campuses than in flyover states.

Electability ultimately applies (or should apply) to the national electorate, not just the narrow field of primary voters, which is why Sanders is so compelling, and why Biden, setting aside his dreadfulness, is a risky bet even in strict electability terms; absent the inevitable collapse of the global quantitative easing asset bubbles on Trump's watch (and he is trying his best with the tariffs, to be fair), Biden wouldn't be far from attempting the same thing as 2016 and expecting a different result.
 
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