Current Affairs 2017 General Election

[rascal]

They have practical workable options mate. I'd of thought that was perfectly obvious.

The EU are under no obligation to give us a nice deal, and given the utter whack that Davis et al has been talking, I wouldn't blame them if they gave us a jarg deal.

On Davis by the way, it's become plainly obvious that he's not up to task.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

Your view on what constitutes democracy is completely skewed pal.

The view of the populous changes over time, to suggest that a vote taken last year should be the definitive view forever, even if there was an obvious change in the view of the populous, is absolute rot.

Who said it should stay that way forever? I certainly didn't! We had to wait 41 years for a referendum to get out after 75 seenoads of people were convinced we'd got it wrong then. What exactly do you want mate? A second referendum would carry no more weight the the first so do you want two out of three? Or should we hold referendums every five years? It's just a silly position to take, you act like people weren't upsets back in 75 but they were, you know why there wasn't a second referendum back then stright away? Because they respected the decision that was made and upheld it until enough time had passed to change their view and have enough young people who'd never had a say back then.

 

[TraffordBlue]

It's not the same and you know it. There was opposition to our joining the common market back in 75 yet it was another fourty-one years before we got a say in the matter again. Elections aren't the same as referendums. Should we have a referendum on our EU status every five years then? What would make a second referendum any more legitimate then the first? I think it's safe to say you wouldn't even entertain the idea of a second referendum had the result gone the other way. The people were asked a question and they gave their answer. To ignore that answer and the result is grossly undemocratic.

I agree with the majority of this, especially the part about it being undemocratic. However, I genuinely believe that if the result was the other way round, the 'leavers' would have had as many tantrums as the 'remainers' have done. Some of the leave voters were very smug about the outcome trying to ridicule those that wanted to stay in the EU for their outbursts (some of that ridicule was warranted in my opinion), but Farage is a good high profile example of someone who admitted he wouldn't have accepted the result if it had been close.

But regarding your other stuff, I agree. They put the vote to the people and the outcome was leave and therefore it is only right that we leave. I think the idea of people voting on which way we leave would be a compromise for those who did want to remain but in my opinion, such a significant decision should never have been put to the people in the first place and should have been left to the Politicians.

I voted remain by the way.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

The EU are under no obligation to give us a nice deal, and given the utter whack that Davis et al has been talking, I wouldn't blame them if they gave us a jarg deal.

On Davis by the way, it's become plainly obvious that he's not up to task.

The EU have done their fair share of chatting bubbles to. I expect we will reach a deal that will leave everyone (remain, leave, the UK and the EU) unhappy in the end.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

I agree with the majority of this, especially the part about it being undemocratic. However, I genuinely believe that if the result was the other way round, the 'leavers' would have had as many tantrums as the 'remainers' have done. Some of the leave voters were very smug about the outcome trying to ridicule those that wanted to stay in the EU for their outbursts (some of that ridicule was warranted in my opinion), but Farage is a good high profile example of someone who admitted he wouldn't have accepted the result if it had been close.

But regarding your other stuff, I agree. They put the vote to the people and the outcome was leave and therefore it is only right that we leave. I think the idea of people voting on which way we leave would be a compromise for those who did want to remain but in my opinion, such a significant decision should never have been put to the people in the first place and should have been left to the Politicians.

I voted remain by the way.

I agree we would of seen tantrums from the likes of UKIP has remain won but the difference mate, is that they wouldn't of been given the time of day from the media and would of been called out (quite rightly) for being anti-democratic. No such condemnations are coming loudly or forcefully are coming against certain remainers as they would of been against leave.

 

[jal123]

The EU have done their fair share of chatting bubbles to. I expect we will reach a deal that will leave everyone (remain, leave, the UK and the EU) unhappy in the end.

And in that case, who will be claiming victory? Nigel Farage and all the cretins on twitter I imagine.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

And in that case, who will be claiming victory? Nigel Farage and all the cretins on twitter I imagine.

I doubt it. We most certainly won't see the Brexit, Fararge and UKIP wanted. IMHO very little will change including free movement ect and the entire thing will of been a waste of time. The person who should be taking the most abuse for this entire episode (but has seemingly has got away with it) is David Cameron who should of been made to see the process through which he started in his pathetic attempt to steal votes from UKIP.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

I agree we would of seen tantrums from the likes of UKIP has remain won but the difference mate, is that they wouldn't of been given the time of day from the media and would of been called out (quite rightly) for being anti-democratic. No such condemnations are coming loudly or forcefully are coming against certain remainers as they would of been against leave.

hahahaha, yeah right oh. Is that the same highly biased right wing media that was pushing so hard for Brexit? The same right wing media who labelled our judiciary as "Enemies of the People"? Of course they'd have criticised the likes of Farage had they pushed for a 2nd vote after a close result, pfffffttttt.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

Who said it should stay that way forever? I certainly didn't! We had to wait 41 years for a referendum to get out after 75 seenoads of people were convinced we'd got it wrong then. What exactly do you want mate? A second referendum would carry no more weight the the first so do you want two out of three? Or should we hold referendums every five years? It's just a silly position to take, you act like people weren't upsets back in 75 but they were, you know why there wasn't a second referendum back then stright away? Because they respected the decision that was made and upheld it until enough time had passed to change their view and have enough young people who'd never had a say back then.

You said a 2nd vote would be grossly undemocratic, irrespective of the circumstances. At what point in time does it become not grossly undemocratic? You're making this up as you go along mate.

 

[Bluerover]

Or it's remainers stamping their feet in rage that they lost and what another go like children. I've alredy said I would be just as angry with leave suggesting a second referendum had they lost because I think that would be just as wrong. The only thing I'm terrified of is my right to vote in free and democratic elctions/referendums and having that vote respected and upheld.

When you and other pro-Brexiteers voted to leave the EU, were you fully aware that this meant turning your backs on a tariff-free market of 678 million people (i.e. current EU minus the UK population) for UK exports?

The protectionist US and Asia are not going to fill that purchasing market gap as easily, and as economically. Yes, EU exporters to the UK will also potentially suffer, but an "eye for an eye" leads to a place full of blind people, or ...in the worst case scenario, huge job losses both in UK and in EU.

I really feel that most voters were so distracted by the refugee issue, and the simplistic argument about UK being a net financial contributor (to the tune of £ 8.6 Bn in 2016), that they lost sight of the fact that all of your exporters are now facing the chilling prospect of customs duties for this massive market that is only a couple of hours away. There are thousands of jobs at stake, and the potential cost to UK social security etc could be a lot greater than the annual saving.

Over £ 3 Bn was paid to UK under CAP alone in 2015, so if HMG is going to maintain farm incomes, that reduces the £ 8.6 Bn saving to about £ 5 Bn per annum

I agree with your democracy argument but the beauty of democracy is that people can change their minds between votes.

I fear that too much of a hole has now been dug to extract the UK from this very frightening economic nightmare.

I am also acutely conscious of the enormous economic, political and social problems this will cause for Ireland.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

You said a 2nd vote would be grossly undemocratic, irrespective of the circumstances. At what point in time does it become not grossly undemocratic? You're making this up as you go along mate.

No I'm not mate and I think that's little unfair on your part to suggest I'm doing so. I think a year after holding a referendum is to quick to be asking for a rerun that's all. It's about the timing pal, what happens if we vote leave again? Do you want a third vote? And why would the second mean more then the first? Why should uphold that one?

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

No I'm not mate and I think that's little unfair on your part to suggest I'm doing so. I think a year after holding a referendum is to quick to be asking for a rerun that's all. It's about the timing pal, what happens if we vote leave again? Do you want a third vote? And why would the second mean more then the first? Why should uphold that one?

I've not said there should be a vote though mate. I was merely contesting the daft assertion that if there was one, it'd somehow be grossly undemocratic. People have a right to change their minds, and if there was a vote and it went the other way, then that'd be as democratic as the first poll.

 

[orchard]

Christ, this DUP deal's going to get messier than Brexit, just to keep the hag in #10.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

I've not said there should be a vote though mate. I was merely contesting the daft assertion that if there was one, it'd somehow be grossly undemocratic. People have a right to change their minds, and if there was a vote and it went the other way, then that'd be as democratic as the first poll.

And leave voters would be just as angry as remainers now and would find lots of data to "prove" enough people had changed their minds again and wanted a third referendum after which remain would repeat the cycle. The first referendum wouldn't of been democratic because it was never upheld and in the end was dismissed. People do have a right to change their minds but they also have to live with their decisions in life. Now you can say that isn't fair as a remainer you having to live with the decision of others but that's majority rule for you.

 

[orchard]

David Mundell
Secretary of State for Scotland
davidmundell.com
David Gordon Mundell WS PC is a Scottish solicitor, Conservative politician and UK Government Minister, serving as Secretary of State for Scotland since 2015. Mundell is the first Conservative to hold the position since Michael Forsyth in 1997