Current Affairs 2017 General Election

[orly]

A couple of points on this. To take the NHS as an example, the state still spends considerably more on this than in, say, the Major years, and that's because spending grew so much during the Blair years. If we take as read that the country wasn't in some tragic state of disrepair during the Major years, then we have to be careful with hyperbole when describing things.

Secondly, and again to take the NHS as an example, the way politics is run has come home to roost, and the NHS is a perfect example of that. The government knows full well that it is spending beyond its means on 'health', but it also knows that the NHS is a sacred cow, so rather than splitting the 'pain' evenly between the NHS and social care, it 'saves' the NHS, and puts a huge burden on social care, hence we're left with a situation where beds are blocked because there's no capacity in the community to accept people, demand for the NHS continues to rise because social care isn't equipped to tackle prevention and so on. It's a purely political mess, and it will continue to be so so long as the NHS is such a political hot potato that it simply cannot be discussed rationally.

Blimey been waiting for someone to write this post for ages about the NHS. At last!

Every senior figure at the moment in the nhs will tell you that we need to stop treating the private sector as anathema. We can sell research and training skills. We can sell appointments and consultant access to industry reps (not to patients). We can sell credentialing.

This idea that we should just firewall the NHS from outside influence is completely farcical. It just won't work

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Blimey been waiting for someone to write this post for ages about the NHS. At last!

Every senior figure at the moment in the nhs will tell you that we need to stop treating the private sector as anathema. We can sell research and training skills. We can sell appointments and consultant access to industry reps (not to patients). We can sell credentialing.

This idea that we should just firewall the NHS from outside influence is completely farcical. It just won't work

I'm actively involved in trying to 'privatise' the NHS as we speak

 

[orly]

I'm actively involved in trying to 'privatise' the NHS as we speak lol

If we want free at the point of access to continue, we have to be more progressive in our ways of maintaining it.

Taking it back entirely under the public's wing (because let's be honest, there are zero parallels with the Tube system) would be catastrophic

 

[Bruce Wayne]

If we want free at the point of access to continue, we have to be more progressive in our ways of maintaining it.

Taking it back entirely under the public's wing (because let's be honest, there are zero parallels with the Tube system) would be catastrophic

Indeed, it's got to open itself up considerably imo, but it's not easy to do that at all because of the fuss around it (among many other things).

 

[Huyton Layne]

Does anyone find May likeable? Does she just win because the UK left is as incompetent as the U.S. left?

 

[The Cowboy]

If we want free at the point of access to continue, we have to be more progressive in our ways of maintaining it.

Taking it back entirely under the public's wing (because let's be honest, there are zero parallels with the Tube system) would be catastrophic

Dentistry has been a paid-for NHS service for as long as I can remember, and no-one cries about that. We need to get more non-critical services off the taxpayer's hands, there'll be a short period of handwringing and then everyone will see it makes sense that way.

 

[tsubaki]

A couple of points on this. To take the NHS as an example, the state still spends considerably more on this than in, say, the Major years, and that's because spending grew so much during the Blair years. If we take as read that the country wasn't in some tragic state of disrepair during the Major years, then we have to be careful with hyperbole when describing things.

Secondly, and again to take the NHS as an example, the way politics is run has come home to roost, and the NHS is a perfect example of that. The government knows full well that it is spending beyond its means on 'health', but it also knows that the NHS is a sacred cow, so rather than splitting the 'pain' evenly between the NHS and social care, it 'saves' the NHS, and puts a huge burden on social care, hence we're left with a situation where beds are blocked because there's no capacity in the community to accept people, demand for the NHS continues to rise because social care isn't equipped to tackle prevention and so on. It's a purely political mess, and it will continue to be so so long as the NHS is such a political hot potato that it simply cannot be discussed rationally.

I think its a considerable error to see the NHS as part of "the state", at least in many areas (I do however agree that it is a good example of a politically inspired mess / waste of money).

Of course the state pays the bills - but increasingly the money goes to private "healthcare" firms who have got hold of local monopolies to deliver services, to PFI firms for operating hospitals and other facilities, to the various Commissioning groups, to consultants (not the medical kind) and to recruitment agencies to deal with the chronic (and likely worsening, if Brexit goes ahead) staff shortages.

I accept that there are some private involvement that you could never get rid of - drug and medical supplies firms, for instance - but there is a lot that you could cull in the name of efficiency.

Also your point about the Major government - don't forget that they oversaw the initial operation of the Internal Market (brought in as part of the NHS and Community Care Act 1990) which you could argue is when the costs really started to skyrocket - indeed there is a bit of a parallel there between what happened to the NHS and what happened to British Rail, which underwent a similar reform and also where the cost to the state (and to the rest of us) have also markedly increased.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I think its a considerable error to see the NHS as part of "the state", at least in many areas (I do however agree that it is a good example of a politically inspired mess / waste of money).

Of course the state pays the bills - but increasingly the money goes to private "healthcare" firms who have got hold of local monopolies to deliver services, to PFI firms for operating hospitals and other facilities, to the various Commissioning groups, to consultants (not the medical kind) and to recruitment agencies to deal with the chronic (and likely worsening, if Brexit goes ahead) staff shortages.

 

[JonS]

If we want free at the point of access to continue, we have to be more progressive in our ways of maintaining it.

Taking it back entirely under the public's wing (because let's be honest, there are zero parallels with the Tube system) would be catastrophic

Agree about being progressive but rather than privatise I'd look at the amounts wasted for eg drugs that don't work (eg Tamiflu at the time of the last expected epidemic/pandemic)

Don't agree taking it back under public wing would be catestrophic. Worked for Cuba. We just have to decide what our priorities are (and I'd rather health than bailing out a corrupt banking system)

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

Does anyone find May likeable? Does she just win because the UK left is as incompetent as the U.S. left?

Likeability shouldn't be a factor on her ability to be a good PM or not. But you are basically correct about the incompetence of the Left as the reason she will win.

 

[orly]

Agree about being progressive but rather than privatise I'd look at the amounts wasted for eg drugs that don't work (eg Tamiflu at the time of the last expected epidemic/pandemic)

Don't agree taking it back under public wing would be catestrophic. Worked for Cuba. We just have to decide what our priorities are (and I'd rather health than bailing out a corrupt banking system)

Difficult comparison - and one the Corbyn lot tend to overlook - is that our NHS works with a much more diverse demographic - and a wider spectrum of illnesses. We should be welcoming all, not selecting on whether they fit our services / bills.

Can't be brought back into the public purse entirely, and neither will it ever thankfully.

 

[LouReedwalkonthewildside]

I've never got the feeling that Labour are actually anti-Brexit. This is Corbyn's biggest flaw imo, he's so woolly and non-committal, it's almost impossible to know what he, and by extension, the Labour Party, truly stand for.

Ostensibly it feels that a vote against the Tories will be a vote against Brexit, and that's certainly the case with the Lib Dems, but I just can't say that about Labour.

Like you I get the impression that Labour are not anti - Brexit, the problem they have now is they need to get across to voters what a Brexit plan would look like under them, but all we ever hear though is "We won't give the Tories a blank check" "We'll hold the Tories to account" etc, we now need substance from Corbyn and Co.

 

[tsubaki]

Agree about being progressive but rather than privatise I'd look at the amounts wasted for eg drugs that don't work (eg Tamiflu at the time of the last expected epidemic/pandemic)

Don't agree taking it back under public wing would be catestrophic. Worked for Cuba. We just have to decide what our priorities are (and I'd rather health than bailing out a corrupt banking system)

I think the important thing to do is that, if the state is going to pay for it (the NHS), the state has to be able to exert appropriate control over the spending. At present it is all very much hands-off, with the usual effects and which will kill any attempt to reform it.

 

[orly]

I think anyone who works in an NHS facing organisation would be utterly amazed at the idea that control over spending is 'hands-off' at present. the DH is actively shuttering any non-critical programmes and merging UK Health bodies. Any suggestion otherwise is simply inaccurate.

It's also completely inaccurate to suggest the health service isn't being reformed. It is - huge changes to the career framework and the move towards decentralised care, and patient data. It just isn't being reformed in a loopy throwback way based on archaic ideas

 

[JonS]

I think anyone who works in an NHS facing organisation would be utterly amazed at the idea that control over spending is 'hands-off' at present. the DH is actively shuttering any non-critical programmes and merging UK Health bodies. Any suggestion otherwise is simply inaccurate.

It is certainly doing what you say but the cuts are happening in the wrong areas IMO. The NHS needs to be working for the benefit of the people, not the corporations