Current Affairs 2017 General Election

[orchard]

@bluecol Any chance you could engage in this thread and with the debate rather than neg everyone who can see May's party for the free-loading short-term scum that they are?

 

[JimmyJeffers]

*On the right side of a heavily socialist version of history.

How is that heavily socialist? Genuinely interested. In my opinion, there exists a whole load of scare mongering by the right, calling labour 'socialist' or 'trots', I can't see it myself. My understanding of socialism extends far further than nationalising railways. I've got a mate who was in the militant and they all referred to corbyn as 'soft left'.
I wish corbyn was 'heavy socialist',then I might vote for him.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

How is that heavily socialist? Genuinely interested. In my opinion, there exists a whole load of scare mongering by the right, calling labour 'socialist' or 'trots', I can't see it myself. My understanding of socialism extends far further than nationalising railways. I've got a mate who was in the militant and they all referred to corbyn as 'soft left'.
I wish corbyn was 'heavy socialist',then I might vote for him.

To be honest, whether something is nationalised or privatised, what really matters is a) is that entity well managed, and b) what can you (the customer) do about it if it isn't.

 

[JimmyJeffers]

To be honest, whether something is nationalised or privatised, what really matters is a) is that entity well managed, and b) what can you (the customer) do about it if it isn't.

Well I totally agree. The point is more to do with the swift disregard of labour policies on the premise that they're socialist.

 

[tsubaki]

How is that heavily socialist? Genuinely interested. In my opinion, there exists a whole load of scare mongering by the right, calling labour 'socialist' or 'trots', I can't see it myself. My understanding of socialism extends far further than nationalising railways. I've got a mate who was in the militant and they all referred to corbyn as 'soft left'.
I wish corbyn was 'heavy socialist',then I might vote for him.

Sadly we live in a country whose media portrayed Ed Miliband as "Red Ed" - despite his platform being so left wing that the Tories have nicked much of it - so Corbyn was always going to be summed up as basically Lenin.

 

[Tubey]

Sadly we live in a country whose media portrayed Ed Miliband as "Red Ed" - despite his platform being so left wing that the Tories have nicked much of it - so Corbyn was always going to be summed up as basically Lenin.

Corbyn is an admitted Marxist, so how it's the medias fault for calling him one when he himself admits being one is beyond me.

If anything, you can attack how marxism is portrayed as a bad thing by the media if you really want to, but it's weird to me how you seem to hate the media simply calling a spade a spade with this.

 

[tsubaki]

Corbyn is an admitted Marxist, so how it's the medias fault for calling him one when he himself admits being one is beyond me.

If anything, you can attack how marxism is portrayed as a bad thing by the media if you really want to, but it's weird to me how you seem to hate the media simply calling a spade a spade with this.

He isn't an admitted Marxist - he said he admired him. Given some of the subjects that Marx (and Engels) were writing about, I don't think that admiration is necessarily misplaced.

In any case there is also the whole debate about what Marxism is and what it consists of, which is best answered by this fantastic post from reddit (apologies for the lengthy cut and paste):

If we intend to have a proper discussion on this, it depends on what we mean by Marxism.

If by Marxist, we mean he supports Marx's ideas that:

• Capitalism leads to the alienation of groups of people
• That, under capitalism, segments of society exploit other segments of society
• That capitalism cannot maintain the living standards of the population
• That industry should move towards co-operative ownership
• That the country should focus more on what satisfy human needs rather than on private profits.

Then yes, Corbyn is a Marxist, as is Liz Kendall, as is Yvette Cooper, as is Andy Burnham, as is over half the Labour party.

(Of course, classical Marxism also advocates the idea that socialism is inevitable and that the proletariat will rise up in revolution. I have omitted this because a) We can all agree Corbyn isn't trying to be a revolutionary and b) Marx suggested this before universal suffrage became a thing, and he believed that as the upper classes controlled the government, there was no hope the governments would look after the working-class. Later in his life, he rescinded this view, noting how society had changed towards universal suffrage and came round to the belief that socialism could come about through democratic reform)

Now if you mean Leninism/Marxism-Leninism (i.e. the political ideology that the Soviet Union said is the only legitimate development of Marxism), then that depends on the particular aspect. If we take the social aspects of:

• Support for a universal social welfare system.
• Improving public education and health systems
• Provision of child care
• Provision of benefits
• Ending the exploitation of women

Then Corbyn supports those as does the entire Labour party and some members of the Tory party... If we mean the social aspects of

• abolition of private property
• The use of propaganda to teach people to abide by the ideals of communism

Then he does not support these.

If we take the economic aspect of Marxism-Leninism that:

• Market forces should be replaced with scientific planning
• That the value of a good or service should be determined by its use value
• That wages should be set according to the skill and intensity of the work
• That all industry should be under state ownership.

Then Corbyn couldn't be any further from this. As far as I am aware he has never advocated a change in the way that goods should valued or wages set. And although he believe natural monopolies and major infrastructure should come under public ownership, he seems to support the idea that private businesses and corporations should be allowed to exist.

If we take the political aspect of Marxism-Leninism that

• The state should be controlled by a single-party of Marxism-Leninism principles
• The use of a vanguard party to establish a dictatorship of the proletariat

Then Corbyn absolutely does not support this. If anything, he supports further reform to allow more parties to have influence.

tl;dr Discussions on whether someone is or isn't a Marxist are complicated by the fact that Marxism is an incredibly broad church of beliefs ranging from the very fringes of the far left, to aspects of the One Nation Conservative vision. Ultimately, its meaningless to call someone a Marxist in the 21st century as all being Marxist means is that you think capitalism leads to a significant chunk of people being worse off and that something should be done about it.

EDIT: I think the revolutionary aspect of Marx's original philosophy is something that is overstressed not only by opponents wishing to denigrate socialism, but by left-wing nutjobs who wish to justify their desire for violence, in both cases missing the historical context in which Marx uttered those words. You have to remember, at the time Marx came up with the Communist Manifesto, the majority of Europe was either an absolute monarchy or, at best, ran democracies that heavily weighted in favour of votes by landed gentry (hell up until 1948, property owners effectively got two votes in the UK). At the time, it would have been inconceivable that a government would move towards helping those who are living on the bottom rung of society as they didn't depend on the working class to remain in power. Therefore, to Marx, revolution would have been the only option. 24 years after publishing the Communist Manifesto, Marx admitted that in developed countries "labour may attain its goal by peaceful means", suggesting he had stood down from the idea that revolution was necessary.

 

[Tubey]

He isn't an admitted Marxist - he said he admired him.

Oh come on, that's splitting hairs to the extreme.

He is what he is - the label isn't the issue, it's the negative connotation attached to it if anything.

 

[Clint Planet]

Oh come on, that's splitting hairs to the extreme.

He is what he is - the label isn't the issue, it's the negative connotation attached to it if anything.

Not so much Tsubaki splitting hairs as you making almost meaningless generalisations, Tubey. What exactly constitutes a "Marxist"? And is an admiration for Marx necessarily a bad thing? Much of what Marx wrote stands up today as an analysis of the body politic and the condition of the working class. Marx, of course, has become tainted by his association with the former Eastern Bloc but Stalinism and Marxism are most definitely not the same thing. Stalin et al hijacked Marx's image but perverted his ideology.

Nowt wrong with admiring Marx in my book.

 

[Clint Planet]

 

[tsubaki]

Oh come on, that's splitting hairs to the extreme.

He is what he is - the label isn't the issue, it's the negative connotation attached to it if anything.

Which just indicates the thoroughly depressing nature of modern politics.

Theresa May's political hero is apparently Joseph Chamberlain; if people viewed him with the same myopic lens that Marx is viewed nowadays then you'd end up with a traitorous Christian-hating demagogue who seized tens of thousands of square miles of other men's land, stole their wealth, killed many of them because they resisted a tax that he imposed and then spawned the worst Prime Minister we have ever had.

 

[Tubey]

Not so much Tsubaki splitting hairs as you making almost meaningless generalisations, Tubey. What exactly constitutes a "Marxist"? And is an admiration for Marx necessarily a bad thing? Much of what Marx wrote stands up today as an analysis of the body politic and the condition of the working class. Marx, of course, has become tainted by his association with the former Eastern Bloc but Stalinism and Marxism are most definitely not the same thing. Stalin et al hijacked Marx's image but perverted his ideology.

Nowt wrong with admiring Marx in my book.

Well, if you read what I wrote - that the negative connotation attached is the issue, if anything - then you'd see that was the point I was making.

Corbyn is a Marxist. On it's own, that's a statement of fact, not an attack.

 

[Walken]

Oh come on, that's splitting hairs to the extreme.

He is what he is - the label isn't the issue, it's the negative connotation attached to it if anything.

Pretty sure you were keen in using label, only one post ago tubes

 

[Tubey]

Pretty sure you were keen in using label, only one post ago tubes

Erm... yes? What's your point?

Again, did you read what I said? I said the label itself isn't the issue; it's the negative connotation attached to it, if anything. You could say the same thing about "Tory".

 

[tsubaki]

Well, if you read what I wrote - that the negative connotation attached is the issue, if anything - then you'd see that was the point I was making.

Corbyn is a Marxist. On it's own, that's a statement of fact, not an attack.

It isn't, though. Corbyn has been called a Marxist, and has said he admires Marx, but he has never come out and said "I am a Marxist", nor does a look at his politics over time suggest that he might be.