Everton and Martinez are to blame should Lukaku leave

[McBain]

^^^ I just got 20 PM's about my giant wang BTW ^^^

 

[MikeH72]

17th and a cup is acceptable? I hope that's an April fools prank!

17th and a cup is great mate, look at Villa, they very nearly achieved it last season and they're doing just fine

 

[Dylan]

How is it 'not improving' when we've won more away games than last season, scored more goals, and gone way further in both cups?

I am now convinced you are sitting at your desk chuckling saying 'get a load of this' when you are posting.

 

[ilikecheese]

I am now convinced you are sitting at your desk chuckling saying 'get a load of this' when you are posting.

To be fair he's not wrong in that post. It is all factual information.

That's why he is so good.

 

[toffeejack]

17th and a cup is acceptable? I hope that's an April fools prank!

i'd bite your hand off if that happened this season. i'd accept losing every last one of our league games this season if it meant we won our two FA Cup games.

we haven't won anything in over 20 years, there's more to football than just the league. 17th, a cup win and a cup semi-final is not exactly unacceptable considering the square root of feck all we've achieved since 1995.

 

[ilikecheese]

i'd bite your hand off if that happened this season. i'd accept losing every last one of our league games this season if it meant we won our two FA Cup games.

we haven't won anything in over 20 years, there's more to football than just the league. 17th, a cup win and a cup semi-final is not exactly unacceptable considering the square root of feck all we've achieved since 1995.

We won the 4th place trophy once and the Mersyside Spork a couple of times.

 

[FisherEFC]

David K has been properly used as a doormat in this thread. It's quite a shame to see actually. Entertaining nonetheless

Sad to see, he'll be stalking Moyes shouting LET'S GO CHAMP if this decline continues.

 

[The Esk]

But on the squad: I think it's clear from your posts thus far that you believe that, not only is Martinez incapable of using it as it stands to obtain a CL spot, but any incoming manager would also struggle to secure a CL spot with it - hence the need for more purchases.

So there's a couple of things to emerge this week regarding your position:

1/ The failure to demonstrate why Martinez should be judged more harshly than previous Everton managers (poorer Everton managers one and all as measured by PL points performance and career win rate at the club) that he must walk the plank which no one else had to walk

and (relatedly)

2/ That the squad (the one you believe to be beyond question of such a quality that it amounts to a sackable offence not to utilise to gain a CL spot) is not going to be good enough after all to secure a CL place under the hypothetical new coach, who is to be superior to Martinez.

OK let's put these to bed Dave

1)Martinez is being judged on the following criteria (i) he inherited in his own words "a great platform" from which to progress - we haven't progressed we've moved backwards in absolute and relative terms (ii) he's added well to the squad (just to show balance, as I say he has some skills) so the squad has improved but sadly results have not and there's no evidence in the PL of any change to this trend; (iii) the PL landscape has changed, the glass ceiling that existed predominantly in Moyes' days no longer exists due to a combination of increased investment in a wider number of clubs, the decline of previous incumbents in Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool and this season Manchester City, and the tactical astuteness and man management skills of managers such as Ranieri, Pochettino and Bilic. The glaring omission in contenders is our very own Everton.

2) As I've stated on many occasions our current squad is strong enough to compete in the current race for CL positions, that's almost universally acknowledged across the football community - I do not differ from that point of view at all. However I also realise that we must invest further and restructure the squad to increase our competitiveness particularly (i) if we wish to move from a top 4 challenger to a title challenger, and from a CL qualifier to a CL knock-out stage contender, and (ii) in the light of other clubs' spending plans, we must invest and restructure just to stand still. To not do so would mean in relative terms we move backwards - something we saw time and time again in the dark days of no funding being available for squad development under Moyes.

Now should we do this under a manager who has failed to fashion results out of our existing talents and has proven to be unable to compete at the higher levels our current squad suggests, let alone, an enhanced squad at even higher levels, or should we use our new purchasing power to acquire more skilled, more experienced, already proven management who can not only retain existing talent, but enhance and add to it?

It's a no brainer. It's not personal - we'll all wish Martinez the very best, and if he manages to secure a FA Cup win he'll be part of our folklore forever, but he's not the man to take us forward in the current environment and make the best of the opportunities ahead of us.

I cannot be clearer than that - I'm not asking you to agree necessarily as you're clearly of a singular view that Martinez is the man to achieve all we wish for, but you must accept the logic of the position I and many others propose.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

i'd accept losing every last one of our league games this season if it meant we won our two FA Cup games.

 

[Dylan]

To be fair he's not wrong in that post. It is all factual information.

That's why he is so good.

Like a politician....ignore the bits that don't fall in line with your rhetoric.

Its a results based business, how do you account for the home form and the defending. The manager gets the glory when winning, he sure as hell should get the flack when losing.

 

[roydo]

I cannot be clearer than that - I'm not asking you to agree necessarily as you're clearly of a singular view that Martinez is the man to achieve all we wish for, but you must accept the logic of the position I and many others propose.

Laying odds of the number 72 being in the reply.

 

[hktoffee]

This club should have been doing well in both the league and cup. No contradiction at all. Why can't we do both? No more 17th and a cup. The target shall be set higher. No more small time club mentality.

 

[Whistlin' Dixie]

Laying odds of the number 72 being in the reply.

'Wembley' will no doubt make another appearance.

 

[MikeH72]

OK let's put these to bed Dave

1)Martinez is being judged on the following criteria (i) he inherited in his own words "a great platform" from which to progress - we haven't progressed we've moved backwards in absolute and relative terms (ii) he's added well to the squad (just to show balance, as I say he has some skills) so the squad has improved but sadly results have not and there's no evidence in the PL of any change to this trend; (iii) the PL landscape has changed, the glass ceiling that existed predominantly in Moyes' days no longer exists due to a combination of increased investment in a wider number of clubs, the decline of previous incumbents in Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool and this season Manchester City, and the tactical astuteness and man management skills of managers such as Ranieri, Pochettino and Bilic. The glaring omission in contenders is our very own Everton.

2) As I've stated on many occasions our current squad is strong enough to compete in the current race for CL positions, that's almost universally acknowledged across the football community - I do not differ from that point of view at all. However I also realise that we must invest further and restructure the squad to increase our competitiveness particularly (i) if we wish to move from a top 4 challenger to a title challenger, and from a CL qualifier to a CL knock-out stage contender, and (ii) in the light of other clubs' spending plans, we must invest and restructure just to stand still. To not do so would mean in relative terms we move backwards - something we saw time and time again in the dark days of no funding being available for squad development under Moyes.

Now should we do this under a manager who has failed to fashion results out of our existing talents and has proven to be unable to compete at the higher levels our current squad suggests, let alone, an enhanced squad at even higher levels, or should we use our new purchasing power to acquire more skilled, more experienced, already proven management who can not only retain existing talent, but enhance and add to it?

It's a no brainer. It's not personal - we'll all wish Martinez the very best, and if he manages to secure a FA Cup win he'll be part of our folklore forever, but he's not the man to take us forward in the current environment and make the best of the opportunities ahead of us.

I cannot be clearer than that - I'm not asking you to agree necessarily as you're clearly of a singular view that Martinez is the man to achieve all we wish for, but you must accept the logic of the position I and many others propose.

I don't understand how any person could refute any of that. A superb post

 

[bizzaro]

17th and a cup is great mate, look at Villa, they very nearly achieved it last season and they're doing just fine

Erm mate. Aston Villa has major structural issues at the club that we did not have.

ANY comparison to that club with Everton is fallacious.

Under performance is not the same as being absolute gash.