Who can't handle it?

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Its chicken and egg mate, did he buy the worng players or buy what he could based on the resources available, its hard to know the truth, Although i didnt beleive it at the time something happened in the summer to make the club reavalueate there spending poilicy, wheather it was kirkby, the credit crunch, bad finacial managementm, a takeover falling through, who knows, but i think plan a turned to plan f and here we are in a right mess. Wheather its the boards fault or moyes we dont really know, wel scapegoat one this week and the other next week.

What i will say though and again this has left me scratching my head is that the players arent playing like a team, praticularly the midfeild, this has really surprised me! Of all the cirticisms of Moyes down the years the one thing you could rely on was a well coached team and cohesiveness playing as one unit balanced, sometimes even at the detrimint to better players in our squad. Thats really what has flabbergasted me this season our team is a collection of individuals, a rag shambles, not being able to play to the player closest to them never mind move the ball from defence to attack all over the pitch every component of the team looks imbalanced. First things first lets get back to basics and play like a team winnig dirty if that needs to be the case, but we are not doing the simple things/bread and butter things or earning the right to win games or show class. Thats the key factor.

Yes you have to look to the manager for that.

He bought the wrong players for me. Why did he spend 15 million on Fellaini? He's a good player but he's not what we needed. Why did he get Castillo? Again could be a good player but he's not an British style defensive midfielder. If he is he hasn't been given a chance or a run of games to prove himself.

All he had to do was buy a defensive midfielder who could do the basics, someone as simple as Sean Davis or someone of that ilk. Not a great player by any means but he can do everything Carsley could and he's a similar type of player.

At the moment Jack Rodwell is looking like our best defensive midfield option and as talented a player he is that shouldn't be the case. He's 17 years old.

The lack of cohesion for me is again to do with the summer, because of how late the players came in we have chopped and changed the team. Jagielka, Rodwell, Castillo, Neville, Fellaini etc have all tried the defensive midfield role and the likes of Baines, Osman, Baxter, Arteta, Rodwell and Valente have all been in wide positions.

The team has been chopped and changed and there's been no time to get a system and adapt to it. Alot of the players confidence is gone, we really have been a shambles.
 

He bought the wrong players for me. Why did he spend 15 million on Fellaini? He's a good player but he's not what we needed. Why did he get Castillo? Again could be a good player but he's not an British style defensive midfielder. If he is he hasn't been given a chance or a run of games to prove himself.

All he had to do was buy a defensive midfielder who could do the basics, someone as simple as Sean Davis or someone of that ilk. Not a great player by any means but he can do everything Carsley could and he's a similar type of player.

At the moment Jack Rodwell is looking like our best defensive midfield option and as talented a player he is that shouldn't be the case. He's 17 years old.


The lack of cohesion for me is again to do with the summer, because of how late the players came in we have chopped and changed the team. Jagielka, Rodwell, Castillo, Neville, Fellaini etc have all tried the defensive midfield role and the likes of Baines, Osman, Baxter, Arteta, Rodwell and Valente have all been in wide positions.

The team has been chopped and changed and there's been no time to get a system and adapt to it. Alot of the players confidence is gone, we really have been a shambles.

The summer mate, its true to say that much of our early season woes are down to the players we lost and the players we didnt bring in. I think its a little early to be giving up on Cas. He has to be better then Neville and hasnt looked really bad from what ive seen, so theres promise there.

Where did it go wrong in the summer i dont know wheather it was the board didnt have the funds, or Moyes dithered or wouldnt accept players that wouldnt improve the squad who knows. Maybe he wants to wait for Mbia, Mouthino, Love who knows. Certianly i beleive Moyes is bloody minded enough to do it, as he has in the past when its come to the central midfiled and striking options. Sometimes that course of action means short term losses for long term gains, but are we prepared to thread water till then probabaly not, perhaps the club and Moyes are to blame for what happended in the summer. But im not pointing the finger because i dont know what happend

Whats not on though is what i beleive is happening at the moment, the lack of battleing, the lack of getting stuck in, running back to make a hopefull tackle to win the ball when you shouldnt, closeing down space as if your life depended on it, winning or even competeing for second balls. This is not happening and perhaps some of our players have gotten used to thier success but there not doing the simple bread and butter things that win you games. This buissness of getting rid of the ball at all costs is useless as our battleing for second balls is dire the worst ive seen since the late nineties, some of our players, regardless of ability need to have a long hard look at themselves and despite previous success need to do the scruffy things in the game to earn the right to win games and be successfull again. At the moment i rather a scruffy battleing one nil win over a free flowing seven nil win. Our players need to take pride back in the way they are playing starting with the basic things of winning battles and working themselves back into the players they were and show they want to win games at all costs, the question is, is confidence something that happens or is it something you strive and fight for.
 
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In all honesty, I think we have the players within the squad that can drive us for a safe season. I've said for a long time that we weren't to be as a good as last season but I think we can finish top 7/8.

At this point I'd chose a formation that defends the players better. Arteta has to be on the left...I mean, I think that he's an attacking central midfielder, but having Cahill you must put him playing as a an attacking midfielder, otherwise we'd lose all the points about the aussie's game.

That said, I think Osman has to play on the right. Behind them, I'd have Fellaini in that role of up and down buzz alongside a more positional player (Castillo anyone?).

I think the 5 players in the midfield would provide better cover for the defenders and hopefully we'd keep the ball away from our defenders head and feet....therefore, less mistakes.

Upfront....well, Osman can score and so can Cahill....Fellaini I think will become a regular scorer also and with Arteta cutting inside for a shot we'll have some long range goals... So, every now and then we can bench the Yak... We have Saha and Vaughan and the physical Anichebe. If we're about to make a team, no one should be handed a place on a silver plate... It's like a jigsaw with changing pieces.

Sometimes we'll need Saha's class, othertimes the drive of vaughan....and other times the strength of Anichebe (has he been able to reproduce that performance as right winger?)... The Yak will have to work his socks off.

We have the players, mates. But 2 newcomers to the key places (midfielders both) take some time to make a confortable room for the lads.
 
There are many good posts on this thread and it basically boils down to looking at is up for the challenge of the next level and who is - abilitywise - not.

IMO a lot of our problems seem to derive from the fact that our opponents have just found out "the Everton gameplan". It is simple and while it worked effective. The teams have started to play to our weaknesses and this is what we're paying for at the moment. Here are a few examples to my theory:

Goalkeeper - Howard
In goal it is a well know fact that Howard is an ace shotstopper, but other parts of his play particular his handling of crosses is not that good. Also our blocking is very good especially when Cars was around. The opposition is not doing that much shooting from distance - the exception are the players who always shoot Lampard, Gerrard, Fabregas etc. - they attempt to cross the ball, leaving our defense and Howard unsure of what to do.

Right Back - Hibbert, Neville
Both IMO limited players who have done as much as they can with their talent. They both fight to the final whistle, and while that is great it will not win you matches. The opposition knows that at the first sign of trouble both players will panic and hoof the ball forward. So they simply put a lot of pressure on our right side. This is not the case on our left side, where the opposition is more likely to not push-up.

Right midfield - Arteta
Like many have pointed out Arteta has been found out. When he first came many had forgotten about the player who played very well for Rangers and he was a breath of fresh air. Despite this he has never had the same impact as Gravesen did in his final half season during his first spell. Arteta is a player who IMO needs players around him to play well before he starts to play well. Of the games I have seen this season, I have been frustrated at the lack of fight, creativity and drive that he shows. It seems that his main goal is to force his way into the Spanish national team, and he believes that the way to do it is by trying to do everything himself - which never works. He will only ever dominate in games against Stoke, WBA, Sunderland, Fulham etc. never against a top-six side.

Central midfield - Ossie
Ossie is a great little character, but IMO not a starter for a team trying to go the final mile to the promised land. I'm not saying sell him, he is a great player to throw into the game later on, and will like Arteta be very influencial against lesser opposition. The problem is not his stature and size - but the fact that he moves very slowly with the ball. His control is good, but he lacks pace and on the counter he's not good enough. The opposition has found this out and are playing fast around him, leaving him trailing behind.

These are just four positions on the pitch, but never the less effective ways of killing our game. I'm tempted to throw Arteta into a deep central midfield role alongside Castillo. Let him get the ball and pass it around - play to his strenghts. Put Fellaini on the right side of midfield - on directly as a winger - let him use his strenght, good control, passing and directness. Put Jags out on the right back slot, he has a better passing game than Neville and Hibbert.

With Cahill back I would still persist with the only-one-man-up-front approach, but have three players constanstly supporting him. Until January this would give us the following line-up:

Howard/Nash

Jags - Yobo - Lescott - Baines

------Castillo - Arteta --------

---Fellaini - Cahill - Piennar---

----------Yakubu------------

In January I would listen to offers for Howard, Arteta, Hibbert, Neville and even Lescott.

Put bids in for Hennessy and Knightly from Wolves, a ball-playing right back(could be that Jacobsen makes it though), Defour of Standard Liege.
 

It wouldn't surprise me if he was on about Arteta to be honest.

He obviously gave him the armband to spark something out of him but he's playing like he just doesn't give a [Poor language removed] at the moment.
 
It wouldn't surprise me if he was on about Arteta to be honest.

He obviously gave him the armband to spark something out of him but he's playing like he just doesn't give a [Poor language removed] at the moment.
Exactly - he up there with Neville as least inspiring captain.
 
Exactly - he up there with Neville as least inspiring captain.

I think that's quite harsh on Neville actually, we know Neville will never be a world beater and he always plays with his heart on his sleeve and barks orders around. He plays well but he'll never be a great player... as a vocal leader on the pitch I think he's actually quite good.

Arteta you'd think would be one of those captains that "leads by example" so far he's been one of the worst players on the pitch and when he used to only go missing from the big 4 games he's now going missing from nearly every game.
 
There are many good posts on this thread and it basically boils down to looking at is up for the challenge of the next level and who is - abilitywise - not.

IMO a lot of our problems seem to derive from the fact that our opponents have just found out "the Everton gameplan". It is simple and while it worked effective. The teams have started to play to our weaknesses and this is what we're paying for at the moment. Here are a few examples to my theory:

Goalkeeper - Howard
In goal it is a well know fact that Howard is an ace shotstopper, but other parts of his play particular his handling of crosses is not that good. Also our blocking is very good especially when Cars was around. The opposition is not doing that much shooting from distance - the exception are the players who always shoot Lampard, Gerrard, Fabregas etc. - they attempt to cross the ball, leaving our defense and Howard unsure of what to do.

Right Back - Hibbert, Neville
Both IMO limited players who have done as much as they can with their talent. They both fight to the final whistle, and while that is great it will not win you matches. The opposition knows that at the first sign of trouble both players will panic and hoof the ball forward. So they simply put a lot of pressure on our right side. This is not the case on our left side, where the opposition is more likely to not push-up.

Right midfield - Arteta
Like many have pointed out Arteta has been found out. When he first came many had forgotten about the player who played very well for Rangers and he was a breath of fresh air. Despite this he has never had the same impact as Gravesen did in his final half season during his first spell. Arteta is a player who IMO needs players around him to play well before he starts to play well. Of the games I have seen this season, I have been frustrated at the lack of fight, creativity and drive that he shows. It seems that his main goal is to force his way into the Spanish national team, and he believes that the way to do it is by trying to do everything himself - which never works. He will only ever dominate in games against Stoke, WBA, Sunderland, Fulham etc. never against a top-six side.

Central midfield - Ossie
Ossie is a great little character, but IMO not a starter for a team trying to go the final mile to the promised land. I'm not saying sell him, he is a great player to throw into the game later on, and will like Arteta be very influencial against lesser opposition. The problem is not his stature and size - but the fact that he moves very slowly with the ball. His control is good, but he lacks pace and on the counter he's not good enough. The opposition has found this out and are playing fast around him, leaving him trailing behind.

These are just four positions on the pitch, but never the less effective ways of killing our game. I'm tempted to throw Arteta into a deep central midfield role alongside Castillo. Let him get the ball and pass it around - play to his strenghts. Put Fellaini on the right side of midfield - on directly as a winger - let him use his strenght, good control, passing and directness. Put Jags out on the right back slot, he has a better passing game than Neville and Hibbert.

With Cahill back I would still persist with the only-one-man-up-front approach, but have three players constanstly supporting him. Until January this would give us the following line-up:

Howard/Nash

Jags - Yobo - Lescott - Baines

------Castillo - Arteta --------

---Fellaini - Cahill - Piennar---

----------Yakubu------------

In January I would listen to offers for Howard, Arteta, Hibbert, Neville and even Lescott.

Put bids in for Hennessy and Knightly from Wolves, a ball-playing right back(could be that Jacobsen makes it though), Defour of Standard Liege.

Whoa! What's with all the Arteta bashing and the old "lets sell him" attitude? Is he the one letting the side down to get defeated or lackluster draws every week?

WTF is he gonna do when arguabley the most creative player in the team is cancelled out all game? All you gotta do is stick the left-back to him like glue (look at your top 4 lefts backs - Cole, Evra, Sagna) and get the holding midfielder to cancel him out and Arteta is in affective. Its that simple. Its called tactics on how to stop the teams star player. Is he world class to rise above that kind of man marking? No, and at times neither is Rooney, Ronaldo, Robinho. Its simple really -- look at Fabregas on the weekend, very ineffective and had a quiet game (no doubt if he played for us we'd want him sold as well).

The only other creative outlet is Pienaar and he does a good job because he's never cancelled out of a game. While teams concentrate stopping Arteta, Pienaar gets to play his game -- the arguement there is, is it wasted on the wing or could be more useful in the middle?

Sell Arteta, Lescott? You are joking? What happened to building a squad? The team isnt playing as a whole yet but there were glimmers of it in the 1st half on Saturday. Because players are out of form, we should flog them? The entire Spurs squad should be up for sale on that basis then.
 
The whole thing is simple for me, and we cant get any worse at present. Let Arteta do his thing and put him in CM where he wants to play. Behind him you need a holding player, what have we got, Castillo / Felliani / Rodwell ?? Personally I think we need a british based Carsley type ball winner. I think Moyes will pick someone up in the transfer window, who is not getting first team opportunities in the Prem.

We then have some leftover midfielders, Play Pienaar wide and find another winger.

Felliani will have to fight a place but will be another Cahill, box to box with a few goals. He's too tall to be a perfect midfielder as Fabregas et al will run rings around him.

Felliani and Cahill shouldnt play in the same team.
 

I think that's quite harsh on Neville actually, we know Neville will never be a world beater and he always plays with his heart on his sleeve and barks orders around. He plays well but he'll never be a great player... as a vocal leader on the pitch I think he's actually quite good.

Arteta you'd think would be one of those captains that "leads by example" so far he's been one of the worst players on the pitch and when he used to only go missing from the big 4 games he's now going missing from nearly every game.
You actually summed it up there - I want a captain that leads by example and is vocal.

Neville might be the model pro that Moyes likes and he might have won everything with Man U, but never once was he the player that made things happen in that team. I would not go as far as saying that he was just a bystander, but his contribution was minimal. He seems a nice guy and yes he fights to the final whistle which is all good, but that don't make you a great captain.

For me it's a choice between Cahill and Jags - vocal and leads by example.
 
Whoa! What's with all the Arteta bashing and the old "lets sell him" attitude? Is he the one letting the side down to get defeated or lackluster draws every week?

WTF is he gonna do when arguabley the most creative player in the team is cancelled out all game? All you gotta do is stick the left-back to him like glue (look at your top 4 lefts backs - Cole, Evra, Sagna) and get the holding midfielder to cancel him out and Arteta is in affective. Its that simple. Its called tactics on how to stop the teams star player. Is he world class to rise above that kind of man marking? No, and at times neither is Rooney, Ronaldo, Robinho. Its simple really -- look at Fabregas on the weekend, very ineffective and had a quiet game (no doubt if he played for us we'd want him sold as well).

The only other creative outlet is Pienaar and he does a good job because he's never cancelled out of a game. While teams concentrate stopping Arteta, Pienaar gets to play his game -- the arguement there is, is it wasted on the wing or could be more useful in the middle?

Sell Arteta, Lescott? You are joking? What happened to building a squad? The team isnt playing as a whole yet but there were glimmers of it in the 1st half on Saturday. Because players are out of form, we should flog them? The entire Spurs squad should be up for sale on that basis then.
I only said I would listen to offers - they would have to be a bit inflated - but £12-15 m. for each of Arteta and Lescott and I would sell. The first I would do would be to give him a chance as the deep schemer defensive midfielder - like Essien, Pirlo, De Rossi (and Redondo - the ultimate defensive midfielder). Neither player would be described as a tackling tough midfielder, but a great passer of the ball and shielding the defense by playing the ball out of danger.
To me Arteta does not look like he is enjoying playing here anymore, and thats the reason I would sell. Maybe I'm a bit hard on him, but he really is one of the players with the talent to have a consistently high level week in week out and when he is sort of just filling up a midfield place I find it frustrating.
 

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