Will we beat the ‘entertainers’

[Death]

Let me get this straight, we are discussing whether Fat Sam is as cr#p as Martinez, I find it difficult to choose and my crapometer is broke.

Funny, so is Steve Walsh's.

 

[gonetomorrow]

I thought this was the Arsenal match thread.

Will close the door on my way out

Same here. I thought "Who on earth is describing Ersenal as entertainers ?"

I think I'll go and have a nice sit-down.

 

[mkrudden]

Roberto Martinez with the likes of Stones Barkley Deulofeu and Lukaku at his disposal guided us to two ‘phenomenal’ 11th place finishes in a row with 47 points in each. A ‘phenomenal’ achievement from a manager who had been given time to mould his own philosophy on his own squad and had by and large avoided serious injuries. One patronising BBC pundit even branded us ‘the Entertainers’

Big Sam picked up a squad that had come off the back of an awful period of recruitment, completely unbalanced, and in the midst of a crippling injury/confidence crisis. He no longer had one of the league’s best strikers (or any decent striker) and centreback at his disposal and has had no pre season to work with a group that are not his players. We currently sit on 31 points after 25 games. Allardyce has garnered 16 points from 11 league games (I’ve not counted West Ham).

He therefore needs 16 points from the remaining 13 games to equal Sin Miedo’s league performances with the entertainers. Considering that in his first 11 games he’s had Liverpool, United, Spurs, and Chelsea, and in his remaining 13 games he only has Liverpool, Arsenal and City i’m quite confident that he will achieve this.

How would the old cult population of GOT feel about their idol being overshadowed by a football dinosaur who received a hospital pass?

Your hatred of Martinez consumes you.
For example, you don't give Bobby any credit for teaching a team of meat and potato footballers to play from back to front with the most compelling football we've seen in 20 years.
And he got 72 points.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Your hatred of Martinez consumes you.
For example, you don't give Bobby any credit for teaching a team of meat and potato footballers to play from back to front with the most compelling football we've seen in 20 years.
And he got 72 points.

Meat and potato footballers? He had Stones and Barkley gifted to him then was allowed to smash our transfer record on Lukaku as well as pay large loan fees for Barry and Deulofeu. 13 Mill on McCarthy, 10 Mill on Funes Mori, 13 on a back up striker. Moyes would have killed for that money.

Once the real creative players of that 13/14 team (Osman and Pienaar) we’re sidelined the whole project fell apart. Martinez simply added a 20 goal striker to Moyes’ top 6 side then came 5th with it before he set the whole thing on fire.

Answer the poll though, do you think we’ll beat 47 points?

 

[davek]

Ha Ha Ha.

A defence of a football Visigoth at the expense of a man who set a games won and points total record for us for any season over the last 31 years.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

 

[davek]

Your hatred of Martinez consumes you.
For example, you don't give Bobby any credit for teaching a team of meat and potato footballers to play from back to front with the most compelling football we've seen in 20 years.
And he got 72 points.

Spot on mate.

How do people retain so much bile for a time when football flourished again at Everton...especially now that we're wading through the football equivalent of a sewer?

 

[Eggs]

..looks like a good thread but I don’t really know what it’s about.

 

[Charlie Sweet]

Roberto Martinez with the likes of Stones Barkley Deulofeu and Lukaku at his disposal guided us to two ‘phenomenal’ 11th place finishes in a row with 47 points in each. A ‘phenomenal’ achievement from a manager who had been given time to mould his own philosophy on his own squad and had by and large avoided serious injuries. One patronising BBC pundit even branded us ‘the Entertainers’

Big Sam picked up a squad that had come off the back of an awful period of recruitment, completely unbalanced, and in the midst of a crippling injury/confidence crisis. He no longer had one of the league’s best strikers (or any decent striker) and centreback at his disposal and has had no pre season to work with a group that are not his players. We currently sit on 31 points after 25 games. Allardyce has garnered 16 points from 11 league games (I’ve not counted West Ham).

He therefore needs 16 points from the remaining 13 games to equal Sin Miedo’s league performances with the entertainers. Considering that in his first 11 games he’s had Liverpool, United, Spurs, and Chelsea, and in his remaining 13 games he only has Liverpool, Arsenal and City i’m quite confident that he will achieve this.

How would the old cult population of GOT feel about their idol being overshadowed by a football dinosaur who received a hospital pass?

Fat Sam doesn't play football. So what if he gets us to a mid-table points per game tally?

Martinez offered the prospect of a great standard of attacking football. We should have persisted with him.

 

[Saint Domingo]

Fat Sam doesn't play football. So what if he gets us to a mid-table points per game tally?

Martinez offered the prospect of a great standard of attacking football. We should have persisted with him.

Where was that in the last 2 seasons?

 

[Saint Domingo]

Ha Ha Ha.

A defence of a football Visigoth at the expense of a man who set a games won and points total record for us for any season over the last 31 years.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

Sam is struggling to clear up the mess that Martinez and Koeman left him. It wasn’t Allardyce who demolished a top 6 squad and replaced it with a dads and lads brigade.

 

[TraffordBlue]

Your hatred of Martinez consumes you.
For example, you don't give Bobby any credit for teaching a team of meat and potato footballers to play from back to front with the most compelling football we've seen in 20 years.
And he got 72 points.

I think the situation is somewhere in between what you're both saying although I am definitely more in the critical of Martinez camp.

Martinez was excellent in his first season. He should be given a lot of credit for identifying those players like Deulofeu and McCarthy who both offered a lot in that season, but even more notably, Barry and Lukaku. Further to that, he showed faith in the likes of Barkley and Stones, and he utilised the more experienced players very well. There were numerous times when we were struggling in games and Martinez made an influential change. The game that springs to mind was when we were drawing 0-0 away with Villa and he brought on Osman around the 60 minute mark. Osman got an assist for Lukaku in the 68th, and killed the game off in the 81st. That side was a perfect blend of experience and talented youth, with a manager willing to play different ways and make substitutions when the time was right.

What went on over the next 2 seasons in the league was a disaster and a lot of it was caused by the manager himself. In complete contrast to his first season where he made incisive subs, I remember us getting humiliated down at Southampton in the December (no change there) who were in poor form at the time, and we went on an awful run. Martinez failed to make a single substitution in that game and had clearly ran out of any ideas. Some of the pro Martinez supporters like to rewrite what went on and make out like it was free flowing football all the time. It wasn't.

"Southampton ended their run of five straight defeats as they comfortably beat Everton." "Ross Barkley's 20-yard first-half shot for the visitors was the only effort on target from either side after an hour."

We are constantly told how great Martinez was based solely on that first season. The truth is that he took us backwards, manged Everton in to a decline, neglecting key areas of the team (most notably the defence) and took us to two pathetic 11th placed/47 point seasons consecutively. The football in those seasons was awful and not the free flowing style that some make out.

 

[Kaiser Soysauce]

More ways to skin a cat.

 

[mkrudden]

I think the situation is somewhere in between what you're both saying although I am definitely more in the critical of Martinez camp.

Martinez was excellent in his first season. He should be given a lot of credit for identifying those players like Deulofeu and McCarthy who both offered a lot in that season, but even more notably, Barry and Lukaku. Further to that, he showed faith in the likes of Barkley and Stones, and he utilised the more experienced players very well. There were numerous times when we were struggling in games and Martinez made an influential change. The game that springs to mind was when we were drawing 0-0 away with Villa and he brought on Osman around the 60 minute mark. Osman got an assist for Lukaku in the 68th, and killed the game off in the 81st. That side was a perfect blend of experience and talented youth, with a manager willing to play different ways and make substitutions when the time was right.

What went on over the next 2 seasons in the league was a disaster and a lot of it was caused by the manager himself. In complete contrast to his first season where he made incisive subs, I remember us getting humiliated down at Southampton in the December (no change there) who were in poor form at the time, and we went on an awful run. Martinez failed to make a single substitution in that game and had clearly ran out of any ideas. Some of the pro Martinez supporters like to rewrite what went on and make out like it was free flowing football all the time. It wasn't.

"Southampton ended their run of five straight defeats as they comfortably beat Everton." "Ross Barkley's 20-yard first-half shot for the visitors was the only effort on target from either side after an hour."

We are constantly told how great Martinez was based solely on that first season. The truth is that he took us backwards, manged Everton in to a decline, neglecting key areas of the team (most notably the defence) and took us to two pathetic 11th placed/47 point seasons consecutively. The football in those seasons was awful and not the free flowing style that some make out.

I disagree with this mate. Simply because the likes of @davek and I do take the licks in respect of his second and third season. Further, we both concede that he was right to be sacked. What we ensure though, probably to the point of boring a large volume of the GOT family, is contextualise his performance as manager. We do this specifically in relation to those that say Martinez was a poor manager. Some even go as far to say he was as bad for the club as Mike Walker. Which is utterly bonkers.

What I believe, with absolute respect, is that you too - along with @Saint Domingo - are showcasing revisionism. For example, here you say:

"What went on over the next 2 seasons in the league was a disaster and a lot of it was caused by the manager himself."

Yes, some of it - and you use a good example with Southampton away - was down to him. Martinez nor his 'fans' can escape that. But what about the fact that he had no money, certainly where comparing to the funds in the hands of Koeman and Allardyce.

At the end of season 1, he had Distin and Howard fall off a cliff form-wise. Remember Distin vs Swansea away in the league cup early into RM's second season? Absolutely atrocious. Howard too went from a great season to a very poor one. Without any hint his form was to take such an alarming dip.

What would any manager do in that instance? He'd go out and buy a new CB and a new GK. He clearly didn't trust Joel as a number 1 (and said so publically). There is nothing wrong with buying a number 2 goalkeeper for emergency purposes only.

Where were the funds for this? He'd just saved 2 windows worth of cash / sales to bring in Lukaku for 28m.

"Yeah but what about Niasse". He had 13m to spend on a striker. It was a risk. If he had 25m to spend, would he have brought in Niasse? Of course he wouldn't. If he had £10m to spend on a CB like Koeman did on Williams, would he have brought in Alcaraz on a free? If he had £27m to spend on a further striker, would he have brought in Kone for £6m?

You cannot compare apples and pears. What is completely reasonable is to say that he inherited an ageing squad and got a season out of them that he had no right to do. His second season domestically was poor but I for one enjoyed us blitzing Wolfsburg home and away.

Third season, again not good enough. But again, he had peanuts to spend. Cleverley on a free. Deulofeu for 4m. Niasse. Funes Mori. He had to spread a very limited budget across an entire core.

Could he have done better with it. Possibly, I wouldn't disagree. To say though that everything was plain sailing yet he blew a hole in his own ship is just factually inaccurate.

 

[nsno-chris]

Please stop talking about Martinez. With my utter hatred of the Fat Man I may actually start saying positives things about him

*thinks about West Ham at home
*thinks about Stoke at home

 

[Charles Plastusz]

Spot on mate.

How do people retain so much bile for a time when football flourished again at Everton...especially now that we're wading through the football equivalent of a sewer?

Possibly because it only flourished for less than a third of Martinez time here? I don't fall firmly in to any side of this threads debate because theirs many facets to the argument and I don't believe in the absolute certainty of big Sam's crapness or the one direction type wetting the panty cult of "Bobby"