upcoming films

[Wizard]

Snoke being a "carbon copy" of the Emperor is a complaint that has some merit, but if he is such a copy, then the same criticisms that apply to him must apply to the Emperor. When A New Hope came out there was no back story to him, he appeared "out of nowhere" as much as Snoke did. The story telling in the OG is deserving of the same criticism surely? Would you make the same criticism if the prequels hadn't been made to give him some? What if they make an origin story for him does that all of a sudden make TFA/TLJ better??

No because The Emperor was the oldest, most powerful baddie. You don't need backstory to understand that. You do need backstory for a new old, powerful baddie who must have been around during the previous 2 trilogies. Where has he come from? Why was he not involved in all of the events we have seen before? How is he so powerful? So powerful that he can turn young Jedis against Luke. They are questions that would be answered by a good storyteller.

 

[Toast]

No because The Emperor was the oldest, most powerful baddie. You don't need backstory to understand that. You do need backstory for a new old, powerful baddie who must have been around during the previous 2 trilogies. Where has he come from? Why was he not involved in all of the events we have seen before? How is he so powerful? They are questions that would be answered by a good storyteller.

I play as the emperor on battlefront 2.
He's ace.

 

[Philw]

Not really - he didn't need a backstory in the first three films because people didn't wonder why the Empire had an Emperor at its head. Also the idea that a republic could fall and be replaced by an empire led by a strongman is something that is almost a cliche in most societies, especially in the West - it doesn't really need explaining any more than the idea that young men would risk everything to try to save a princess does.

Snoke (or the First Order) didn't have any of that behind him.

The First Order is basically the Empire 2.0 in all but name. Snoke is it's head. If the Emperor didn't need a backstory then why does Snoke?

No because The Emperor was the oldest, most powerful baddie. You don't need backstory to understand that. You do need backstory for a new old, powerful baddie who must have been around during the previous 2 trilogies. Where has he come from? Why was he not involved in all of the events we have seen before? How is he so powerful? So powerful that he can turn young Jedis against Luke. They are questions that would be answered by a good storyteller.

The new films take place a long time after the OT (presumably around 40 years?). Snoke would have been an irrelevance during the OT. The Emperor had no explanation of how he got to be the Emperor. Why should Snoke?

 

[Wizard]

Why should they tho?
They aware that he is reckless and a bit of a loose cannon that will do something against orders if he thinks orders are wrong. We see at the end that they trust him though. So when making a massive decision to enable the resistance to survive, why leave him out of the thought making process, knowing he might then do something to jeopardise it. As he ends up doing.

Fair enough if you don't like that section, I didn't mind it.

Like what exactly?
Firstly I thought it was terribly acted. Secondly his existence was just lazy storytelling tacked on to a story thread that shouldn’t even be there. What are the chances that they happen to be thrown in jail with another person who just so happens to have the exact skills they need?

Again, fair enough if you didn't like it.

Did they explain anything about the Emperor in the OT?
See my (and others) previous response

 

[Jamiednm]

Snoke being a "carbon copy" of the Emperor is a complaint that has some merit, but if he is such a copy, then the same criticisms that apply to him must apply to the Emperor. When A New Hope came out there was no back story to him, he appeared "out of nowhere" as much as Snoke did. The story telling in the OG is deserving of the same criticism surely? Would you make the same criticism if the prequels hadn't been made to give him some? What if they make an origin story for him does that all of a sudden make TFA/TLJ better??

You didn't understand my post. TFA has 6 prequels. ANH has zero prequels. That's why Snoke's lack of back story is a huge problem. How can you not grasp this? The big bad guy of 6 movies is finally killed, then in the 7th, a new, even more powerful replacement just appears out of nowhere without explanation, rendering the death of Palpatine pretty meaningless.

Most of the hate on the new films is completely unfounded in most cases. I can understand certain things that people don't like, and there are certainly issues with parts of them, but they are miles ahead of the prequels, and most of the time people can't seem to tell the difference between something being bad and something they just don't like.

The sequel trilogy will age extremely badly. It already is. The prequels, for all their faults actually had a coherent, epic story, world building, locations, characters and ambition that added to the saga. The sequel trilogy is shallow and is rightly getting huge criticism.

It's also interesting to note that in its first 24 hours on YouTube, the Episode 9 trailer had about 1/4 of the views that Avengers: Endgame had. People have lost interest, simply because they don't care about the weak stories, characters and lack of originality shown in Eps 7 & 8. The Last Jedi killed Disney Star Wars, as shown by Solo.

 

[Jamiednm]

Most people don't care about that though. People care about Solo. Also, wouldn't that have been just about as lazy??

Yet the Solo movie was a flop.

 

[Philw]

They aware that he is reckless and a bit of a loose cannon that will do something against orders if he thinks orders are wrong. We see at the end that they trust him though. So when making a massive decision to enable the resistance to survive, why leave him out of the thought making process, knowing he might then do something to jeopardise it. As he ends up doing.

But isn't that exactly the reason why they wouldn't tell him? He's already wilfully caused the death of hundreds of people going against a plan he was part of, and been busted down a level for it, why would you include him in the next plan?

Firstly I thought it was terribly acted. Secondly his existence was just lazy storytelling tacked on to a story thread that shouldn’t even be there. What are the chances that they happen to be thrown in jail with another person who just so happens to have the exact skills they need?

Hmmm, not sure about being terribly acted, seemed like standard Del Toro for me, which I quite enjoy.

Yes, that is a fair point!!

See my (and others) previous response

Also see above posts!

 

[The binman chronicles]

When A New Hope came out there was no back story to him, he appeared "out of nowhere" as much as Snoke did.

Just think how people would react now, he is only mentioned once in a new hope and then in ESB he is just a hologram with a different actor playing him compared to Ian McDiarmid who was then cast for RotJ. This has been digitally corrected though by Lucas in the subsequent re-releases.

 

[Encoder]

I didn't hate Solo, but the lighting oh my word. Screen was half black most of the time. Like they where too embarrassed to show what they had made, given the directorial clusterf*ck. Just switch on a lamp ffs.

 

[The binman chronicles]

No because The Emperor was the oldest, most powerful baddie. You don't need backstory to understand that. You do need backstory for a new old, powerful baddie who must have been around during the previous 2 trilogies. Where has he come from? Why was he not involved in all of the events we have seen before? How is he so powerful? So powerful that he can turn young Jedis against Luke. They are questions that would be answered by a good storyteller.

I think that the answer is in the fact Disney are/were(?) going to try and run another prequel trilogy to expand that story.

 

[tsubaki]

The First Order is basically the Empire 2.0 in all but name. Snoke is it's head. If the Emperor didn't need a backstory then why does Snoke?

Because as I said people can accept the idea behind the emperor's rise without needing to be told it. Snoke on the other hand is an (apparently) non-human leader of what appears to be a human-centric successor state to a human-centric Galactic Empire that somehow is more powerful than the state it came from.

The new films take place a long time after the OT (presumably around 40 years?). Snoke would have been an irrelevance during the OT. The Emperor had no explanation of how he got to be the Emperor. Why should Snoke?

I am not sure you can claim that someone who is apparently that powerful with the force can just be an irrelevance, especially when Vader and the Emperor had actively gone after other force users to the point where there were only four others left.

 

[Wizard]

But isn't that exactly the reason why they wouldn't tell him? He's already wilfully caused the death of hundreds of people going against a plan he was part of, and been busted down a level for it, why would you include him in the next plan?


Hmmm, not sure about being terribly acted, seemed like standard Del Toro for me, which I quite enjoy.

Yes, that is a fair point!!


Also see above posts!

He went against the plan for the greater good. He saw an opportunity to make a huge dent in the First Order and succeeded. Include him on the new plan as they trust him and see him as a leader. Surely better to have him on board than going rogue and doing something stupid (which is what he does).

I like BDT normally but thought his (or their) character choices for this were bad. His weird voice and ticks were too distracting for me. But that’s a personal thing so won’t argue with people that liked his approach.

 

[Philw]

You didn't understand my post. TFA has 6 prequels. ANH has zero prequels. That's why Snoke's lack of back story is a huge problem. How can you not grasp this? The big bad guy of 6 movies is finally killed, then in the 7th, a new, even more powerful replacement just appears out of nowhere without explanation, rendering the death of Palpatine pretty meaningless.

1) I understood just fine thanks. ANH technically has 3 prequels, but either way, the number of prequels is irrelevant. RoTJ left nowhere to turn to for a new lead antagonist, therefore TFA started from the same place as ANH did for it's antagonist, and had exactly the same amount of explanation and backstory. You can't criticise one film for doing (or not doing) something, then completely disregard that same criticism for another film you are comparing it to. Why does ANH get a pass on not explaining the most powerful person in the entire trilogy, other than "ANH didn't have any prequels", which isn't a valid argument?

2) Don't be so condescending.

3) The death of Palpatine is made meaningful by what happened before it, not what happens afterwards.

The sequel trilogy will age extremely badly. It already is. The prequels, for all their faults actually had a coherent, epic story, world building, locations, characters and ambition that added to the saga. The sequel trilogy is shallow and is wrongly getting huge criticism.

Maybe, but you can't say they have aged extremely badly already. It's not like they were universally praised to start with and now people are starting to hate them. In fact I believe the opposite, as people who dislike them now will grow to accept/appreciate them more over many years, and the young kids growing up with them will treat them as we do the OG - as evidenced by the number of people on here who like the prequels. Which imo have truly aged terribly. I tried watching one the other day and had to turn off after 15 minutes. It was so bad.

Characters? What like Jar Jar Binks? Lol. Darth Maul was quite cool, but massively overated imo. The only other characters they had were from the OT.

What epic story? The rise of Vader? Well they made an absolute balls of that. Any epic story they had they ruined imo.

Fixed

It's also interesting to note that in its first 24 hours on YouTube, the Episode 9 trailer had about 1/4 of the views that Avengers: Endgame had. People have lost interest, simply because they don't care about the weak stories, characters and lack of originality shown in Eps 7 & 8. The Last Jedi killed Disney Star Wars, as shown by Solo.

Yet the Solo movie was a flop.

According to your own argument this is because of TLJ, so surely this point is irrelevant??

 

[Philw]

Because as I said people can accept the idea behind the emperor's rise without needing to be told it. Snoke on the other hand is an (apparently) non-human leader of what appears to be a human-centric successor state to a human-centric Galactic Empire that somehow is more powerful than the state it came from.


I am not sure you can claim that someone who is apparently that powerful with the force can just be an irrelevance, especially when Vader and the Emperor had actively gone after other force users to the point where there were only four others left.

If the NO = the Empire, then Snoke = the Emperor. If the Emperor needs no explanation because he is "the Emperor", then surely the same must apply to Snoke. I don't get the "apparently non-human" thing though? The galaxy is full of non-humans, why can't one be head of the NO? Also it does become clear later that he is human, just his initial portrayal could have lead to some confusion (a valid point I admit).

He's only that powerful now though. Like I said, if we assume this takes place 40 years later then that is plenty of time for him to gain his powers and rise to prominence. Vader was unaware of Leia until he read Luke's feelings. Why couldn't another user have slipped under their radar? Or just have been in the background of the Empire learning his trade at the time (which wouldn't have been relevant to show at the time as another trilogy wasn't planned)?

He went against the plan for the greater good. He saw an opportunity to make a huge dent in the First Order and succeeded. Include him on the new plan as they trust him and see him as a leader. Surely better to have him on board than going rogue and doing something stupid (which is what he does).

But that is not how they (Holdo and Leia) saw it, and he also made a huge (arguably huger - relatively speaking) dent in their own forces, which is made clear in the film, therefore their later actions track with how their characters would be thinking. He did something rogue and stupid when they had him on board. It is therefore logical not to have him on board for their later plan.

I like BDT normally but thought his (or their) character choices for this were bad. His weird voice and ticks were too distracting for me. But that’s a personal thing so won’t argue with people that liked his approach.

Yeah, that is fair enough, I can see how people might dislike that.

Personally I have issues with the opening scene of TLJ, yet people hardly seem to bring that up as a criticism anymore!!

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

Why can't people understand that it's a perfectly reasonable request from fans to know about Snoke and the First Order and their backstory? Why do people insist on comparing them to the Emporor and the Empire?

There was nothing to go on when the OT was first realised. Totally new movie and world that people accepted for what it was. There was no expectations. That's obviously not the case with the sequels, people who have invested time into these movies want to know what's happened to their hero's and why all their sacrifices seem to of been for nothing. They want to know were this new bad guy has come from to challenge the established order, overthrow the good guys and leave our hero's in hiding. There's nothing unreasonable about that. It's the nature of sequels. If you want to make movies without the need for a backstory and loads of explanations then it's not a smart move to chose to do sequels to one of the most popular triolgy's of all time.

In any event people who say we don't know anything about the backstory in the OT that's completely untrue. Early on in ANH we hear Tarkin say: "The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emporor has dissolved the council permanently. The last vestige of the Old Republic have been swept away forever". In that one single quote we learn more about The Emporor, the Empire and the Galaxy in general then episode seven and eight managed for Snoke and the first order combined.