Two steps forward

[BlueToff]

Yeah I felt like we missed Stones bringing the ball out and committing an opponent to close him down. He can see a pass too.

There wasnt really any need to have 2 stoppers from the 60th minute as WBA were entrenched in their own half.

Bit confused why we didnt see Baines + Pienaar sub, aswell as the Kone one.

Though as I've said I did see some of the logic in the subs, I also believe that they were wrong.

Martinez's main flaw is he is reluctant to change shape during a game. His set-up at the start of games is usually fine.

The one time I think he's done it (changed shape) this season and it's worked is when he put Gibbo back to centre back vs. Norwich in the League Cup. Pushed Stones to right back and further up the pitch and suddenly we looked a different side and got the goal.

 

[BlueToff]

I probably agree, but Mori is no slouch at coming out with the ball, I think he's been fantastic in his first season coming from South American football, in another season he'll be a top CB.

It's just at present playing Stones and Mori together they are too inexperienced, and because Jags was injured, we've suffered from having to play them week in week out this season.

Oh no I've been impressed by Mori, but like I said and @mkrudden has mentioned, Stones would probably have been a huge help on Saturday in that he has the ability to beat a man and pick a pass in central areas.

Instead, Barkley was having to drop deeper to get on the ball and in turn we were restricted to long-range efforts.

Just a thought, obviously.

 

[mkrudden]

Though as I've said I did see some of the logic in the subs, I also believe that they were wrong.

Martinez's main flaw is he is reluctant to change shape during a game. His set-up at the start of games is usually fine.

The one time I think he's done it (changed shape) this season and it's worked is when he put Gibbo back to centre back vs. Norwich in the League Cup. Pushed Stones to right back and further up the pitch and suddenly we looked a different side and got the goal.

Yeah, I guess i'd just temper that with the view that there wasn't anything wrong with the shape of the side generally apart from needing another striker on to aim at (as i've boringly stated in other threads, apologies!).

We snuffed out any danger they mustered and created chances. We needed better delivery and better options in the CF position to finish off the slick passing.

 

[BlueToff]

Yeah, I guess i'd just temper that with the view that there wasn't anything wrong with the shape of the side generally apart from needing another striker on to aim at (as i've boringly stated in other threads, apologies!).

We snuffed out any danger they mustered and created chances. We needed better delivery and better options in the CF position to finish off the slick passing.

Yep, just one of them that combined with us not being able to finish and them defending well. We got Pusil'd!

 

[Lanolin]

Yep, just one of them that combined with us not being able to finish and them defending well. We got Pusil'd!

I get what you mean by this, but I think it's pretty important to point out that other teams appear to be able to avoid being 'Pulis'd' without too much difficulty. He's being made out to be some sort of jedi master of these things, but they hadn't actually won an away game since October before saturday, and that was against the not very mighty Norwich.

 

[Khalekan]

I get what you mean by this, but I think it's pretty important to point out that other teams appear to be able to avoid being 'Pulis'd' without too much difficulty. He's being made out to be some sort of jedi master of these things, but they hadn't actually won an away game since October before saturday, and that was against the not very mighty Norwich.

A simple truth.

Pulis is no Helenio Herrera and Baggies are not masters of Catanaccio.

(There's one for the teenagers, @BlockHead )

They lost at the Barcodes last week FFS and outside of Villa and possibly Norwich they are the worst team in the league

Why does he always outfox Bobby at Goodison?

 

[Little Ralphy]

Yeah, I guess i'd just temper that with the view that there wasn't anything wrong with the shape of the side generally apart from needing another striker on to aim at (as i've boringly stated in other threads, apologies!).

We snuffed out any danger they mustered and created chances. We needed better delivery and better options in the CF position to finish off the slick passing.

We needed proper width to stretch WBA as it was all too easy for them. The last thing we needed to be doing was playing it around in front of them while they regrouped.

We had the width on the right, we needed it on the left also. Not a Kone who doesnt move or do much of anything really, but Deulofeu could have given us that width there, and been told to stay wide. It was all too easy for them to defend one side.

Then we needed someone who commits players and creates space like Mirallas. We did not need 2 holding midfielders once they went a goal up. We could have swapped McCarthy who does his best work in games when we don't dominate possession for Mirallas, had Barkley drop slightly deeper like he seems to these days anyway and have Mirallas floating around behind Lukaku.

We'd have had a lot more movement in the side, could have potentially created more space and certainly drawn more fouls etc. for set pieces around the box. WBA offered very little going forward and you'd have hoped Jags, Mori and Barry could have nullified any break before it even began.

At one point on Saturday we seemed to have Jags out wide on the left, what is that all about?

SAF at Man Utd created the blue print for breaking sides down who park the bus. Genuine width and pace, playing at a high tempo. Not wide players like Cleverly and Kone, or passing it around the defence and midfield hoping a gap may appear. You have to create them with movement.

Martinez has had the same lesson dished out to him 3 years on the trot now and looks no closer to solving it. Let's hope he doesn't get a fourth try at it.

 

[banno]

Hope Roberto is here till at least his contract ends. He is building a great squad and just needs to balance it out. Great football being played and now the players need that little more experience. It so good to see good football. If he finds that balance during the remaining time of his contract we will be able to realistically challenge for the top 4. I would rather him keep plugging away than reverting to defensive football hoping to get a break like WBA as that would be a backwards step.

 

[WA Toffee]

If Ross Barkley's aiming was a little better, would we still be having this discussion?

 

[BlueToff]

I get what you mean by this, but I think it's pretty important to point out that other teams appear to be able to avoid being 'Pulis'd' without too much difficulty. He's being made out to be some sort of jedi master of these things, but they hadn't actually won an away game since October before saturday, and that was against the not very mighty Norwich.

Tbh mate I think Pulis saves a special something for us. Martinez, ultimately, plays right into his hands - but on this occasion it's not like we created so little that we deserved to lose.

Players have to take the responsibility as well as Martinez, for not putting the chances away.

 

[BlueToff]

If Ross Barkley's aiming was a little better, would we still be having this discussion?

Exactly, a matter of inches.

 

[mkrudden]

We needed proper width to stretch WBA as it was all too easy for them. The last thing we needed to be doing was playing it around in front of them while they regrouped.

We had the width on the right, we needed it on the left also. Not a Kone who doesnt move or do much of anything really, but Deulofeu could have given us that width there, and been told to stay wide. It was all too easy for them to defend one side.

Then we needed someone who commits players and creates space like Mirallas. We did not need 2 holding midfielders once they went a goal up. We could have swapped McCarthy who does his best work in games when we don't dominate possession for Mirallas, had Barkley drop slightly deeper like he seems to these days anyway and have Mirallas floating around behind Lukaku.

We'd have had a lot more movement in the side, could have potentially created more space and certainly drawn more fouls etc. for set pieces around the box. WBA offered very little going forward and you'd have hoped Jags, Mori and Barry could have nullified any break before it even began.

At one point on Saturday we seemed to have Jags out wide on the left, what is that all about?

SAF at Man Utd created the blue print for breaking sides down who park the bus. Genuine width and pace, playing at a high tempo. Not wide players like Cleverly and Kone, or passing it around the defence and midfield hoping a gap may appear. You have to create them with movement.

Martinez has had the same lesson dished out to him 3 years on the trot now and looks no closer to solving it. Let's hope he doesn't get a fourth try at it.

Couldn't disagree more.

We did not need width. WBA are set up to concede width. They don't care how much of the ball you have out wide. They don't care if your winger beats their full back.

They turn games into congested messes. You cannot "draw them out" with width. You need to put strikers in the box and players behind them who can find them with subtle passes. You need link up play, one twos and to get shots off like Barkley did first half.

Lennon should have done better at times.
Cleverley should have done better at times.
Same with Barkley.
Same with Kone when he came on.

The strategy was fine. We got Pulis'd. Move on.

 

[Lanolin]

If Ross Barkley's aiming was a little better, would we still be having this discussion?

Exactly, a matter of inches.

Yes! Or at least, we should be.

If Harry Kane's aiming was a little better we'd have lost both games to Spurs. If Rickie Lambert could hit a barn door we'd have only drawn at The Hawthorns, and if Cameron Jerome could kick straight we'd have somehow contrived to Norwich having ragged them all over the place for 45 minutes. These things happen, games are won and lost on them, and we're losing more than we're winning. It wasn't a one off on saturday, this is how our games seem to be panning out all too regularly.

Some fans are concerned about the way things are going. A nice goal from 20 yards to earn a draw at home to West Brom isn't going to change that overnight. To me, our performance on Saturday showed me that Martinez is not learning and still hasn't found a way to break down stubborn defences. Worse than that, I couldn't even get my head round what he was trying to do. While I would have been very happy had we scored, it wouldn't have changed my view that we were poor overall. I made a comment last week about the true knee jerkers being the ones who think everything's OK because we win a game, and the same would apply this week.

 

[AndyC]

A simple truth.

Pulis is no Helenio Herrera and Baggies are not masters of Catanaccio.

(There's one for the teenagers, @BlockHead )

They lost at the Barcodes last week FFS and outside of Villa and possibly Norwich they are the worst team in the league

Why does he always outfox Bobby at Goodison?

Cos the one thing Pulis tends to excel at is setting his teams up to defend and frustrate.
We need to be honest, as much as you wouldn't wanna watch West Brom week in, week out - by the heck, did they defend magnificently on Saturday... gits !

 

[Little Ralphy]

Couldn't disagree more.

We did not need width. WBA are set up to concede width. They don't care how much of the ball you have out wide. They don't care if your winger beats their full back.

They turn games into congested messes. You cannot "draw them out" with width. You need to put strikers in the box and players behind them who can find them with subtle passes. You need link up play, one twos and to get shots off like Barkley did first half.

Lennon should have done better at times.
Cleverley should have done better at times.
Same with Barkley.
Same with Kone when he came on.

The strategy was fine. We got Pulis'd. Move on.

I guess that is the beauty of football, people can have no idea of what they're watching but still enjoy a game! I guess that's when you start blaming referees, missed chances, Tony Pulis etc.

They can concede the space out wide all they want but once you start throwing in balls or making runs in to the area from good wide positions they're going to have to defend that area of the pitch, which in turn opens up space elsewhere. It's fairly basic stuff. If you concentrate all of your play through the middle it's fairly easy to defend against. Listen to any manager talk about breaking sides down and they all mention width.
For that matter look at any top side and they all have quality in wide areas and use it to stretch sides and create space.

You can't create space with subtle passes etc. if you haven't created any space for them beforehand.