Transition From Youth to First Team Players

[flibbyflob]

Number of youth team players promoted from Wigan reserves/academy into Wigan first team regulars under Martinez?

Not sure but a club our size should have a better youth policy than Wigan. I think Bob Martin will give the kids a chance this year, much more than Moyes ever did. Are they good enough, who knows but it may be fun finding out.

 

[Allezfan]

Not sure but a club our size should have a better youth policy than Wigan. I think Bob Martin will give the kids a chance this year, much more than Moyes ever did. Are they good enough, who knows but it may be fun finding out.

Better first team too on the flip side.

 

[efc1111]

Maybe the people in here who are more familiar with english football can help me with this but I do not understand why Everton have a reserve / u-21 team. Why not send all young players on contract out on loan to lower clubs that play the type of football we would be looking to teach? These players would play in more competitive games that have fans, pressure and the chance to secure interests from other teams?

In addition to the other replies, the other problem would be that there is no recall clause permitted in the first month of a loan, so if we sent a player out on loan then had an injury crisis we wouldn't be able to get the loan player back quickly if they were still in the first month of their loan.

The board was asked at the recent EGM why we hadn't entered a team in the NextGen series (for European clubs' U19 sides). The reply was that the previous regime hadn't been in favour but the new one is, and Elstone said funding would be put in place for an Everton team to take part. I don't know how it would work alongside our current U21 team though, or if we have enough players to run NextGen alongside our current teams.

 

[flibbyflob]

To be honest if we sent a young player out on loan it should be to Sheff Utd or to a club like Crewe or Shrewsbury who either have a good youth record or an experienced respected manager who won't harm the player.

 

[griffla]

“And he’s got a great, great guy leading that in Alan Irvine and that augurs well for us getting that right.”

“He never stops working and he’s a very nice man. So it augurs well.

“We know this is a results game and Roberto has been absolutely phenomenal in the very short space of time he has been with us and we are all very optimistic for what lies ahead.”

Someones got their 'word of the day' bog roll.

 

[swisso]

Someones got their 'word of the day' bog roll.

Just to add to the debate, delighted to hopefully see a different approach from Martinez now.

Some of these lads; Lundstram, Barkley and Hope are entering their FOURTH year as a full time footballer this season.

Luke Garbutt is entering his FIFTH year as a full time footballer.

You'd expect someone to be playing regularly after 5 years of doing something full time in any other job, so why not football? If it means moving down the levels, then so be it.

They need to develop their decision making at the top level, build up their anticipation skills by playing against better players etc. Can't really do that in the U21 league!

 

[allen]

I really hope Martinez is able to make a difference here - this is so vital to our future.

I know it's boring to hear, but our crap youth team yield has a lot to do with Moyes' adversity to risk. I want a little bit of recklessness from Martinez, every now and then. Not bringing on Naismith in the 85th minute.

 

[billycopper]

Just to add to the debate, delighted to hopefully see a different approach from Martinez now.

Some of these lads; Lundstram, Barkley and Hope are entering their FOURTH year as a full time footballer this season.

Luke Garbutt is entering his FIFTH year as a full time footballer.

You'd expect someone to be playing regularly after 5 years of doing something full time in any other job, so why not football? If it means moving down the levels, then so be it.

They need to develop their decision making at the top level, build up their anticipation skills by playing against better players etc. Can't really do that in the U21 league!

I've been having a look at other teams to see whether we're holding players back.

U23 regulars

United: De Gea (22), Jones (21), Welbeck (22)
City: Rodwell (22)
Chelsea: Oscar (21), Moses (22), Hazard (22), Lukaku (20)
Arsenal: Wilshere (21), Chamberlain (19), Jenkinson (21)
Spurs: Holtby (22), Townsend (21), Caulker (21)
Liverpool: Coutinho (21), Borini (22), Sterling (18), Flanagan (20), Wisdom (20)

We've actually got no Under 23 players who appear regularly for us or another high-level club.

Gueye (23) made 30 appearances for Strasbourg in Ligue 2 before joining us. Quite surprisingly he's made 38 appearances for us in 3 seasons, providing 8 assists. Last season he played 7 games for Brest in Ligue 1, supplying 3 assists.

Vellios (21) made 22 appearances in the Greek Superleague for Iraklis, scoring 4 goals. Once again I'm surprised that he's turned out 24 times for us in 3 seasons, including 22 league appearances, scoring 3 goals.

Duffy (21) has played 29 times in 4 seasons, including 5 league appearances for us and 8 for Burnley.

Junior (21) has only ever played 1 senior competitive game for any club and that was our Carling Cup embarrassment at Leeds.

The closest comparison to Gueye is possibly Townsend who has been loaned to 9 different clubs in 4 years and has 106 league appearances and 12 goals to his name despite being two year's younger than Magaye.

Lukaku is the most similar to Vellios. He has 116 league appearances and 50 goals to his credit.

For Duffy read Caulker. He has played a total of 117 league games for 4 clubs.

Wilshere is most like Junior, I suppose. The Arsenal man has played league football 76 times.

In all probability their players are better than ours anyway. Moyes' logic might also have been that we have such a small squad that we need to keep the fringe players in case they're needed. I would argue though that Gueye would be much more potent and battle-hardened by now if he'd had loan spells at Watford, Leeds or Birmingham like Townsend. A season playing for Bristol City could have had the same positive effect on Duffy as it had for Caulker. And being sent in the footsteps of Wilshere to the Reebok would have done Junior no harm at all.

Maybe Dennis Lawrence will be actively looking for the right sort of loan deals for players rather than waiting and seeing what offers come in?

 

[slimspek]

I think part of the problem is the new u21 league. Based on our performances we get relegated or promoted to different groups. I don't think we're even in the top group right now. So maybe we've also been holding back players from loans because we want to stay in a top reserve group. I don't know much about it but is it worth sending players on loan at the expense of playing in a crappy reserve league?? I doubt we have a big enough squad to send out the promising youngsters on loan while maintaining a good u21 team. Personally I would just send the players on loan.

 

[WA Toffee]

FFS, can't we just buy a shedload of young Belgians and be done with it?

 

[Zodiak]

.......very few players come through the ranks and I have generally been of a mind that if they are good enough they will get a game. What I don't like is the push from supporters to give youngsters 'a run of games to prove themselves'. I'm afraid results are so precious that we can't use premiership matches as trial games.

That's a fair point and one that Moyes made himself in the past. But what doesn''t seem fair is not using the youngsters, and also not letting them get games elsewhere as we "might need them" as Moyes also said, particularly in Duffy's case.

It's an awkward one really. Our squad was/is one of the smallest and you can understand Moyes being reluctant to let Duffy out on loan, but it's also not fair on Duffy to sit around not playing except for the odd game for the reserves.

You can't blame the player for saying either give me games here, or let me get them elsewhere.

I also think a lot fans frustrations with Moyes has been in games where the 3 points are well and truly sewn up, and with 20 minutes to go he brings on Heitinga and STILL leaves the likes of Barkley and Duffy on the bench instead of giving them valuable minutes. No excuse for that really.

 

[Dithering Dougie]

That's a fair point and one that Moyes made himself in the past. But what doesn''t seem fair is not using the youngsters, and also not letting them get games elsewhere as we "might need them" as Moyes also said, particularly in Duffy's case.

It's an awkward one really. Our squad was/is one of the smallest and you can understand Moyes being reluctant to let Duffy out on loan, but it's also not fair on Duffy to sit around not playing except for the odd game for the reserves.

You can't blame the player for saying either give me games here, or let me get them elsewhere.

I also think a lot fans frustrations with Moyes has been in games where the 3 points are well and truly sewn up, and with 20 minutes to go he brings on Heitinga and STILL leaves the likes of Barkley and Duffy on the bench instead of giving them valuable minutes. No excuse for that really.

Two things with this, Duffy had two loans last season and I'm pretty sure one the season before. Last season we had all sorts of kids out on loan, Duffy, Barkley, Bidwell, Gueye, Hammar and Lundstrum off the top of my head. It's not like we don't do it, we've done it when it's right for them and us. We had a small squad like you say and there was no point in making it smaller.

The other thing, when in the last few seasons have we actually really had many games sewn up comfortably enough to consider drastically changing the team shape, not very often.

 

[Christiffa25]

We havnt had games sewn up for years!!

 

[Zodiak]

Two things with this, Duffy had two loans last season and I'm pretty sure one the season before. Last season we had all sorts of kids out on loan, Duffy, Barkley, Bidwell, Gueye, Hammar and Lundstrum off the top of my head. It's not like we don't do it, we've done it when it's right for them and us. We had a small squad like you say and there was no point in making it smaller.

The other thing, when in the last few seasons have we actually really had many games sewn up comfortably enough to consider drastically changing the team shape, not very often.

What loans were they mate? I remember him having a loan to S****horpe a couple of years back but nothing last season?

His father used to tell us on here that he was itching to play games and go out on loan but Moyes wouldn't sanction it as he needed him for back up.

If Moyes needed back up, he should have brought in experienced cover like he did with Hitzlesperger (sp) last year instead of stifling the career of a young lad who needs games.

 

[Zodiak]

We havnt had games sewn up for years!!

Don't be daft. Not ten a penny granted, but certainly there's been opportunities at the business end of games over the last few years to give a few youngsters minutes.

I'm not a Moyes basher which for some bizarre reason has become fashionable on here, Moyes done a magnificent job over the years, but for me, his substitutions, both negative when we needed to be positive, and not giving a kid on the bench game time when results weren't in doubt, did irritate me more often than not.