Current Affairs The Would Be Emperor Has No Clothes (aka POTUS 47)

[Xizor]

I'm glad you agree with the commentary but I don't think a single opinion column is convincing me that Israel support was the sole or even principal issue that led to Democrats losing this election or voters not showing up.

Even the subheader in that article is "Imagine how isolated in their trauma Arab-American voters must have felt to turn to Trump. But that’s what happened".

I don't believe there's a significant group of potential voters who found Israel/Gaza to be such an important issue that it stopped them voting Harris and going for Trump instead.

 

[wainy]

I'm glad you agree with the commentary but I don't think a single opinion column is convincing me that Israel support was the sole or even principal issue that led to Democrats losing this election or voters not showing up.

It isn't. I'd take a stab at it being the rhetoric from them. Support trump, you're a nazi. Don't want trans women in the changing room with your daughter, you're a TERF. It was never ending. In the age of social media its like people cant accept others will have differing views, and that doesnt make them automatically wrong or monsters. Its why i keep a mixture of political views on my X so i dont end up in an echo chamber (getting harder i admit since musk took over). Some of them are vile, some are measured and sensible, even if i dont agree with them.
And like it or not they, they'll need some of these people to vote for them in future elections. As I said in a previous post, they need some self reflection on how they lost on what should have been an easy victory.

 

[LinekersLegs]

But that graphic only deals with those who DID vote.

My point is that the Biden administration forced many who would vote democrat normally to sit this one out...

NYT Times piece today: "In predominantly urban counties nationwide where most votes had been counted, Ms. Harris received two million fewer votes than Mr. Biden had four years earlier. Overall votes in these counties were down by about 1.7 million."

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/11/us/politics/democrats-trump-harris-turnout.html

An extra 2 million votes could have won a lot more Senate and House seats and the free hand that Trump has now could have been prevented.

Yes, those are the views of the ones who did vote - I kinda think they are important as they at least proved they were willing to vote and potentially persuadable. A “bird in the hand is worth two in the bush” as it were.

But OK lets look at those who didn’t vote. You keep on saying that the primary reason those people sat this one out is Gaza. Where is your evidence? It probably did make a difference in Michigan (although hard to exactly quantity) but Harris needed WI and PA too.

You have also never specified what message or actions you think would have brought these single issue Gaza voters off the sidelines other than a vague “be less pro Israel”. That encompasses a huge range of policy positions, none of which you ever expand on. For instance how many of these voters would an “Uncommitted” endorsement have made a difference with? And a politician changing their position on an issue can have both positive and negative effects, you have no evidence that there wouldn’t have been an even greater swing against.

“If only Harris had done this (unspecified action/message) I believe (without evidence) that she would have got more voters in the states she needed to beat Trump so I’m right in what I said” is a game all of us could probably play but it doesn’t mean we still wouldn’t have Trump et al.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

It isn't. I'd take a stab at it being the rhetoric from them. Support trump, you're a nazi. Don't want trans women in the changing room with your daughter, you're a TERF. It was never ending. In the age of social media its like people cant accept others will have differing views, and that doesnt make them automatically wrong or monsters. Its why i keep a mixture of political views on my X so i dont end up in an echo chamber (getting harder i admit since musk took over). Some of them are vile, some are measured and sensible, even if i dont agree with them.
And like it or not they, they'll need some of these people to vote for them in future elections. As I said in a previous post, they need some self reflection on how they lost on what should have been an easy victory.

So you're saying it's about feelings then?

Pretty much as I always suspected

 

[davek]

I'm glad you agree with the commentary but I don't think a single opinion column is convincing me that Israel support was the sole or even principal issue that led to Democrats losing this election or voters not showing up.

I didn't claim it was the sole reason.

 

[davek]

Yes, those are the views of the ones who did vote - I kinda think they are important as they at least proved they were willing to vote and potentially persuadable. A “bird in the hand is worth two in the bush” as it were.

But OK lets look at those who didn’t vote. You keep on saying that the primary reason those people sat this one out is Gaza. Where is your evidence? It probably did make a difference in Michigan (although hard to exactly quantity) but Harris needed WI and PA too.

You have also never specified what message or actions you think would have brought these single issue Gaza voters off the sidelines other than a vague “be less pro Israel”. That encompasses a huge range of policy positions, none of which you ever expand on. For instance how many of these voters would an “Uncommitted” endorsement have made a difference with? And a politician changing their position on an issue can have both positive and negative effects, you have no evidence that there wouldn’t have been an even greater swing against.

“If only Harris had done this (unspecified action/message) I believe (without evidence) that she would have got more voters in the states she needed to beat Trump so I’m right in what I said” is a game all of us could probably play but it doesn’t mean we still wouldn’t have Trump et al.

No, I dont.

But it was a major issue that set the tone for many Democrats that Harris was no better than Biden on the issue.

To listen to you and @Pittsburgh Footy and @Efcjake you'd think that the greatest genocide of the 21st century had Ameerican voters unmoved. We know that wasn't the case though, dont we?

As for the other part of your post about me not stating what could and should have been done: I certainly did say throughout that POTUS campaign that Harris needed to distance herself from Biden on the Israeli apartheid state's genocide in Gaza and take at least a more even handed approach. But maybe it was too late by then...we'll never know and the shift in policy was never made in any case.

I think we can all agree, though, that Harris and Coach Walz were a terrible ticket and got exactly what they deserved for running such an insipid and uninspiring campaign.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

No, I dont.

But it was a major issue that set the tone for many Democrats that Harris was no better than Biden on the issue.

To listen to you and @Pittsburgh Footy and @Efcjake you'd think that the greatest genocide of the 21st century had Ameerican voters unmoved. We know that wasn't the case though, dont we?

As for the other part of your post about me not stating what could and should have been done, then I certainly did say throughout that POTUS campaign that Harris needed to distance herself from Biden on the Israeli apartheid state's genoiced in Gaza and take at least a more even handed approach. But maybe it was too late by then...we'll never know and the shift in policy was never made in any case.

I think we can all agree, though, that Harris and Coach Walz were a terrible ticket and got exactly what they deserved for running such an insipid and uninspiring campaign.

American voters couldn't come within 2000 miles of Israel on a map of the Middle East, let alone know anything about Gaza.

Sure, it affected a small subset of people. Not enough to sway the election in my opinion

 

[Efcjake]

I didn't claim it was the sole reason.

You didn't, but you didn't offer any alternatives and then drew the conclusion that your assumption "the Dem Party didn't ditch their support for Israel they'd pay the price in 2024" was correct.

Yes, they did.

I stated all along that if the Dem Party didn't ditch their support for Israel they'd pay the price in 2024 and that they'd have to recalibrate what they do in relation to the Middle East for 2028.

I was right. The Biden lot need sweeping away now and the Dem Party will need to go in a different direction to blind support of the Israeli apartheid state. They either do that or they lose again in 2028. You have to believe they learn the lesson well and take an more even handed approach.

So far you haven't backed that claim up with anything other than an opinion column so I'm going to suggest that you are, in fact, not right about that claim.

Unless you have some other substantiation besides opinions?

 

[LinekersLegs]

No, I dont.

But it was a major issue that set the tone for many Democrats that Harris was no better than Biden on the issue.

To listen to you and @Pittsburgh Footy and @Efcjake you'd think that the greatest genocide of the 21st century had Ameerican voters unmoved. We know that wasn't the case though, dont we?

As for the other part of your post about me not stating what could and should have been done: I certainly did say throughout that POTUS campaign that Harris needed to distance herself from Biden on the Israeli apartheid state's genocide in Gaza and take at least a more even handed approach. But maybe it was too late by then...we'll never know and the shift in policy was never made in any case.

I think we can all agree, though, that Harris and Coach Walz were a terrible ticket and got exactly what they deserved for running such an insipid and uninspiring campaign.

Again, a totally evidence free post of your belief “it was a major issue” that also fails to expand on anything less than vague generalities “a more even handed approach” and how many votes it would have swung one way or the other. I’ll leave you to it.

Have to say the “we’ll never know” made me laugh though - the whole point I raised this was that you were claiming you did know!

 

[Efcjake]

No, I dont.

But it was a major issue that set the tone for many Democrats that Harris was no better than Biden on the issue.

I see you keep repeating this but I haven't seen anything to substantiate this.

Could just as easily insert any issue in there with the amount of evidence you have to back up this claim.

To listen to you and @Pittsburgh Footy and @Efcjake you'd think that the greatest genocide of the 21st century had Ameerican voters unmoved. We know that wasn't the case though, dont we?

As for the other part of your post about me not stating what could and should have been done: I certainly did say throughout that POTUS campaign that Harris needed to distance herself from Biden on the Israeli apartheid state's genocide in Gaza and take at least a more even handed approach. But maybe it was too late by then...we'll never know and the shift in policy was never made in any case.

I think we can all agree, though, that Harris and Coach Walz were a terrible ticket and got exactly what they deserved for running such an insipid and uninspiring campaign.

I don't think that's what anyone has said Dave, I think what we have all told you is there is no proof the Israel issue had the impact you're claiming it did and you haven't been able to back it up yet either.


"We know that wasn't the case though, don't we?"

Apart from you repeating yourself and these claims we haven't seen you prove any of that.

 

[twoblue]

Probably, certainly if the republicans get in, but the democrats would give any left wing government a run for their money…..

Democrats are not left wing on a world basis. In any other country they would be a right wing party.

 

[LinekersLegs]

I don't think this is going to make any difference to the Trump team.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

I don't think this is going to make any difference to the Trump team.

People that voted for Trump and wanted to "clean up the border and deport all the migrants" aren't thinking, at all, about the top half of this chart.

But that's what they voted for, whether they intended to or not

 

[Efcjake]

I don't think this is going to make any difference to the Trump team.

Why would it?

They treat the electoral vote as carte blanche to act in whatever way they see fit.

Did the same people who voted him in last time understand they were setting the US on a road where anti-abortion judges were appointed to the supreme Court to strike down Roe vs Wade?

No, but they had the power to do it and they did.

 

[bluestevon]

I'm glad you agree with the commentary but I don't think a single opinion column is convincing me that Israel support was the sole or even principal issue that led to Democrats losing this election or voters not showing up.

Americans don't vote on foreign policy, they never have and likely never will do.