The UK in the EU

[Tubey]

But what I don't understand, is why we'd still need the immigrants if our own workers were forced to work. Leave our people with no option but to get a damn job and then we can sod the EU off.

Indeed.

Shame it's next to impossible.

Even the "evil Tories" make no mention of any intent to stop migrant workers as they know that "fixing" the benefit system to the extent you're saying is nigh on impossible in the short term.

Which is a shame, as if indigenous people were willing to take those jobs then you wouldn't see me complaining about caps on migration.

Of course people can spend it as they like, or waste it. My point was if we all sent money abroad we'd be screwed, and that is a fact which Tubey cannot get his head around.....

So you STILL can't get your head around the fact they're taxed and live here, so if they send half their money back, for example, they're still spending half their money here - which is still more than the amount injected into the economy if that job weren't filled?

Economics 101 here mate.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Of course people can spend it as they like, or waste it. My point was if we all sent money abroad we'd be screwed, and that is a fact which Tubey cannot get his head around.....

Well quite possibly, but there's also this misaprehension that migrants are all sending any spare cash they have home. It simply isn't true.

Working in London there are huge numbers of foreign nationals in their 20's and 30's. ie young professionals. They're not sending money home to their families, they're living here and contributing to the economy here in exactly the same way as any British youngster.

There are some horrible generalisations going on here.

 

[Tubey]

Lolz. Put it this way I've worked in nice clubs before and been payed cash in hand. **** knows what the construction industry is like. You're being naïve.

That's completely irrelevant to the discussion. I've worked cash in hand jobs, glass collecting, even a small supermarket, but the fact me and you worked those jobs shows you something - it has no impact on the economy as they aren't accountable positions.

We're talking about legitimate business of any reasonable size here - not odds and ends.

By the way, the EU migrant couldn't claim benefits whilst working cash in hand either, so they don't fiddle the system.

 

[peteblue]

Indeed.

Shame it's next to impossible.

Even the "evil Tories" make no mention of any intent to stop migrant workers as they know that "fixing" the benefit system to the extent you're saying is nigh on impossible in the short term.

Which is a shame, as if indigenous people were willing to take those jobs then you wouldn't see me complaining about caps on migration.



So you STILL can't get your head around the fact they're taxed and live here, so if they send half their money back, for example, they're still spending half their money here - which is still more than the amount injected into the economy if that job weren't filled?

Economics 101 here mate.

It is economics 101, and I'm afraid you flunked it. Meanwhile can you give me an answer to the question I've asked you about 4 times about how these farm jobs get exported......

 

[peteblue]

Well quite possibly, but there's also this misaprehension that migrants are all sending any spare cash they have home. It simply isn't true.

Working in London there are huge numbers of foreign nationals in their 20's and 30's. ie young professionals. They're not sending money home to their families, they're living here and contributing to the economy here in exactly the same way as any British youngster.

There are some horrible generalisations going on here.

There is no problem with jobs for which we do not have the skilled people to do them ( although it would be nice if we trained people, but that's another issue), but for unskilled jobs, we have people and we should pay them to do the job and not import cheap labour is my point......

 

[EFCNIK]

Aye, more's the pity for us. It shames me that you have a vote to abuse Nik it really does.

Well I won't be voting for anything left or liberal so if that's what you mean then arsed?!

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The bird did ****ty jobs when she first came here because she didn't know English. So worked for peanuts for charities in return for bed/board whilst she learnt English. Few years later went to medical school here and got a degree in a foreign language from King's College.

I'd stake my life that there are many more like her than the tossers you boys are talking about, and I'd say both she and I are pretty confident about her contribution to British society as a migrant. What have you contributed Nik?

 

[Tubey]

It is economics 101, and I'm afraid you flunked it. Meanwhile can you give me an answer to the question I've asked you about 4 times about how these farm jobs get exported......

I've answered you four times - you won't find a sizeable amount of UK nationals prepared to forego Housing Benefit/Council Tax Credit/JSA/ESA to work 40 hours a week for next to nothing more.

So whilst the benefit system remains as it is, those farm jobs NEED to be filled by migrants. If they don't fill them, nobody does.

Therefore, if all EU migrants "vanished" tomorrow, those jobs would not be filled by UK nationals, which means one of three things.

* The farm collapses.

* The farm downsizes (more likely). Economy relies more on imported foodstuffs from abroad, the economy loses out on worker taxation, jobs and export income.

* The farm raises wages to attract UK nationals to the point where it becomes an attractive job prospect. (Unfortunately, this is impossible as farms work on margins - to raise the wage above NMW would inevitably cause catastrophic effects on profit.)

For example (again...):

http://www.singleresource.co.uk/viewjob.asp?ID=7

But I'm tired of this - believe what you want.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

There is no problem with jobs for which we do not have the skilled people to do them ( although it would be nice if we trained people, but that's another issue), but for unskilled jobs, we have people and we should pay them to do the job and not import cheap labour is my point......

Maybe, maybe not. The market/invisible hand is generally a whole lot better at sorting these things out than any Whitehall beauracrat though.

If people are willing to travel across the continent, often when their grasp of the language is not perfect, to work some (to our eyes) ****ty job in order to better their lives or the lives of their family, then I've nothing but respect for them. It's a pity some natives don't share that courage and work ethic.

 

[EFCNIK]

The bird did ****ty jobs when she first came here because she didn't know English. So worked for peanuts for charities in return for bed/board whilst she learnt English. Few years later went to medical school here and got a degree in a foreign language from King's College.

I'd stake my life that there are many more like her than the tossers you boys are talking about, and I'd say both she and I are pretty confident about her contribution to British society as a migrant. What have you contributed Nik?

Oh for goodness sake wah wah wah. Never have I said there weren't decent people coming through from the EU. I've said a lot of them are here for unjust reasons and don't help with the crime rate, but not all. I'm not a ****ing idiot, contrary to popular belief.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You could have fooled me the way you're carrying on in this thread.

 

[peteblue]

I've answered you four times - you won't find a sizeable amount of UK nationals prepared to forego Housing Benefit/Council Tax Credit/JSA/ESA to work 40 hours a week for next to nothing more.

So whilst the benefit system remains as it is, those farm jobs NEED to be filled by migrants. If they don't fill them, nobody does.

Therefore, if all EU migrants "vanished" tomorrow, those jobs would not be filled by UK nationals, which means one of three things.

* The farm collapses.

* The farm downsizes (more likely). Economy relies more on imported foodstuffs from abroad, the economy loses out on worker taxation, jobs and export income.

* The farm raises wages to attract UK nationals to the point where it becomes an attractive job prospect. (Unfortunately, this is impossible as farms work on margins - to raise the wage above NMW would inevitably cause catastrophic effects on profit.)

For example (again...):

http://www.singleresource.co.uk/viewjob.asp?ID=7

But I'm tired of this - believe what you want.

And this is my point exactly. What you miss is that not only do we pay the migrant worker but then we also pay benefit to the person who can't afford/ won't take the job. We as a country pay twice, economics of the madhouse........

 

[EFCNIK]

You could have fooled me the way you're carrying on in this thread.

If I'd have said everyone or all then I can understand.

I just don't feel the need to state the obvious everytime I post about this subject. Of course we need migrants, of course not everyone from eastern europe is bad. But some are, and we get a lot of trouble over here. I don't feel the need to dampen it down when I make that point. It goes without saying ffs.

 

[Tubey]

And this is my point exactly. What you miss is that not only do we pay the migrant worker but then we also pay benefit to the person who can't afford/ won't take the job. We as a country pay twice, economics of the madhouse........

Read the line after the line you bolded to understand why raising the wage is impossible.

Whilst doing so, consider the effect it would have on produce price, exports and the overall economy.

Farmers can't pay £10 an hour for a reason. It's not because they can't be arsed paying it, it's because it's impossible for them. For the same reason a corner shop can't pay a shop assistant £20 an hour, because to cover that the cost of merchandise would increase to the point where sales to the public wouldn't occur, forcing the business under.

You have a massive hole in your grasp of economics. I don't mean to be mean when I say that but you're not thinking bi-laterally.

 

[peteblue]

To be continued.........