The UK in the EU

[RFUS]

Hmm, this is always a tough one. Personal experiences are wholly myopic and yet they shape our opinions massively. Which is fine for most things but when you're talking about hundreds of thousands, even millions of people of immigrants... well it's perhaps not a good idea to generalise.

NIK has had negative experiences that clearly shape his views. And Bruce, you've had the opposite experience, as you've explained. For the record I'm siding more with Tubey/Bruce here, but it's very hard to remain objective. Which is really must for such an issue of this scope.

Personally I've got nothing but respect for people prepared to emigrate to an unfamiliar land -- often on their own, without being able to speak the language to a decent degree -- and do the jobs so many of us see as beneath us. And then on the other hand you have the opportunistic sort who come here to exploit benefits and so on... but I can't really find as much fault with this as some. Opportunists need opportunity, and so the point from before about the benefit system being the problem rather than immigration in itself is something I definitely agree with.

 

[Brennan]

I'd bet that there are far more British nationals on benefits adding nothing to society and causing trouble than there are immigrants doing so. Think some people are picking on a minority because it's easier to blame them.

 

[Azzurri]

Nik has clearly been scarred by Jan Mucha.

 

[Brennan]

Nik has clearly been bummed by Jan Mucha.

.....

 

[peteblue]

Read the line after the line you bolded to understand why raising the wage is impossible.

Whilst doing so, consider the effect it would have on produce price, exports and the overall economy.

Farmers can't pay £10 an hour for a reason. It's not because they can't be arsed paying it, it's because it's impossible for them. For the same reason a corner shop can't pay a shop assistant £20 an hour, because to cover that the cost of merchandise would increase to the point where sales to the public wouldn't occur, forcing the business under.

You have a massive hole in your grasp of economics. I don't mean to be mean when I say that but you're not thinking bi-laterally.

I fully understand the Economic mechanics and competitive environment in running companies. I have over 35 years experience in this field. My point really is that in a country where we perform really well financially, have just spent years building for the Olympics and have an insatiable need for foodstuffs and basic services we should have full employment. There is no need to import workers at the basic level. We are all paying for them anyway through taxation but it is a cruel con trick as it is doing a disservice to 2-3M of our fellow Britons. We can afford it as a nation and need to do something about it now.

 

[Slavan]

the european union was never going to work so we may as well hurry up and leave and get it out of the way.
the cons far out weight the benefits for staying.

 

[degsy]

Is right!
We aren't even in properly what with the Pound still being our currency...and a good job too.
F*ckem all off.
If it wasn't for the English speaking peoples
The Dutch would be speaking Spanish ( Drake at al )
The Spanish and Portugese would be speaking French ( Wellington )
The French would be speaking German
And
The Germans would be speaking Russian

 

[EFCNIK]

I'd bet that there are far more British nationals on benefits adding nothing to society and causing trouble than there are immigrants doing so. Think some people are picking on a minority because it's easier to blame them.

I don't doubt it mate. We are the much bigger majority so of course there will be a larger number.

We don't need foreigners adding to it.

Anyway, my main gripe with the ammount and who we let in isn't that they don't work, as I'm sure most do, its the crime associated. Trafikking, drugs, fraud. The former mostly comes from eastern european gangs. We need filters ffs!

 

[TheFinnFan]

ultimately EU is a money union, and when they suck Turkey in it I'll go mad

 

[Tubey]

Hmm, this is always a tough one. Personal experiences are wholly myopic and yet they shape our opinions massively. Which is fine for most things but when you're talking about hundreds of thousands, even millions of people of immigrants... well it's perhaps not a good idea to generalise.

NIK has had negative experiences that clearly shape his views. And Bruce, you've had the opposite experience, as you've explained. For the record I'm siding more with Tubey/Bruce here, but it's very hard to remain objective. Which is really must for such an issue of this scope.

Personally I've got nothing but respect for people prepared to emigrate to an unfamiliar land -- often on their own, without being able to speak the language to a decent degree -- and do the jobs so many of us see as beneath us. And then on the other hand you have the opportunistic sort who come here to exploit benefits and so on... but I can't really find as much fault with this as some. Opportunists need opportunity, and so the point from before about the benefit system being the problem rather than immigration in itself is something I definitely agree with.

(None of the below is aimed at you RFUS, just addressing that point - I'm aware you're talking about the income gap between a benefit claim and lower end jobs!).

That's an issue with non-EU migrants (who can easily claim asylum) but generally it's not an issue for EU migrants due to the Habitual Residency Test which prevents any non-UK resident from claiming benefits.

Even if they float around the UK performing illegal cash in hand jobs for five years or whatever, they still wouldn't pass the test as they have no proof of previous employment.

The general rule is you have to have lived in the UK almost permanently (except a few holidays abroad), worked in full time employment that is certifiable, own/rent a property officially and have very good long term prospects of employment before you're given the right to claim any sort of benefit.

I can't stress enough that the "benefit tourism" thing is a complete myth, thrown about by people without a shred of evidence based on stereotypes.

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/engla...ing_from_abroad_and_claiming_benefits_hrt.htm

http://www.housing-rights.info/habitual-residence-test.php


Don't believe those websites? Here's the beloved bastion of the right wing, the Daily Mail, acknowledging current rules prevent it, whilst scaremongering as per usual.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-migrants-claim-benefits-soon-arrive-UK.html

It is feared the change could open the door to tens of thousands of Eastern Europeans who are currently deterred from coming to Britain – costing taxpayers up to £2.5billion a year in extra welfare payments.

At present a ‘habitual residency’ test is used to establish whether EU migrants are eligible for benefits.
To qualify for jobseekers’ allowance, employment support allowance, pension credit and income support, they must demonstrate they have either worked here previously or have a good opportunity to get a job.

I shouldn't be shocked by the naivety and prejudice in this thread as I've worked in the sector a good portion of my adult life, but it never fails to shock me for some reason. People who are level headed in nearly every other way fall into gibbering wrecks about this subject.

 

[EFCNIK]

Don't even get me started about how easy it is for non eu members to get in...

I'm not saying I will because I'm not naïve and I know better, but its easy to see why normal people would be pushed to far right voting put it that way.

 

[Slavan]

I know first hand of a decent number of pakistan lads who abuse the asylum and immigration system.
Dont get me wrong, most of them are nice fellers but they get into the country on student visas or tourist visas visiting family members they dont even bother meeting up with.

And again, there is no denyng eastern european gangs do have large cross boarder illegal trafficking, money launderng, crime especially motor crime i have found.
And yes EU membership makes there operation alot easier.
But
the problem would still exist, in a smaller way, but still exist.

We actually need cross european policing to deal with these gangs. Although you dont need to be a EU member to work with other countrys, thats one myth the lib dems always pull out.
Norway have largely got rid of the illegal traffiking from the albanian gangs in their country and also assisted the break up and removal of alot of the 'supply' houses in latvia and lithuania where the gangs intially sent people, mainly women to work as sex slaves.
and they did it effectivly outside the EU while working with EU states.

Its also worth pointing out, there is a large nigerian and chinese criminal sex trafficking in the UK, mainly in the London area but also in birmingham.
this is not an EU problem.

You would also be saddened to know their are illegal sex dens in liverpool, none of you will know about as they tend to keep them within their own ethnic groups.

its sad, really sad trafficking, a form of slavery.
And people say the human race has developed.
Where as wicked as ever.

 

[evilwebby]

The only people who are against free movement of labour between countries are people who don't earn their way.

Low skill migrants who come here are beneficial for our economy; they provide cheap labour and, frankly, a work ethic that is sorely lacking.

You should be GLAD that many immigrant workers send money home instead of spunking it all here. Why? By definition, they produce more than they consume. If they spunked it here - or worse, go into debt to consume - there would be more competition for the goods that are produced, ergo higher consumer prices.

 

[noharmdone]

Today.. NHD 2... Romanians 0.. The game continues..

 

[Slavan]

You should be GLAD that many immigrant workers send money home instead of spunking it all here. Why? By definition, they produce more than they consume. If they spunked it here - or worse, go into debt to consume - there would be more competition for the goods that are produced, ergo higher consumer prices.

Thats not entirly true though is it?
And by not spending money here, they are hardly contributing to VAT an essential government tax.

This subject of immigration is not black and white, its not all good its not all bad.