Current Affairs The UK/EU thread....

[Clint Planet]

EDIT: Sorry misread your quote. You're just saying that racism / xenophobia swung it? Id say possibly but IMO the economy/feelings about prospects was the main factor in Brexit votes

I absolutely concede that they were major factors (and one of my main themes these last few years is the way that neo-liberalism has left the little guy in the provinces feeling wrung out and cast aside) but there is no doubt in my mind that it was the Racism/Xenophobia card that won the game. I saw it unfold before my eyes. ""76,000,000 Turkish rapists on their way.." etc....

Willful, disingenuous demonisation of whole peoples for political gain? Rest assured, it will not be forgotten.

 

[JonS]

I absolutely concede that they were major factors (and one of my main themes these last few years is the way that neo-liberalism has left the little guy in the provinces feeling wrung out and cast aside) but there is no doubt in my mind that it was the Racism/Xenophobia card that won the game. I saw it unfold before my eyes. ""76,000,000 Turkish rapists on their way.." etc....

Willful, disingenuous demonisation of whole peoples for political gain? Rest assured, it will not be forgotten.

Im surprised that you can be as against neoliberal globalisation as I am and still be pro EU.

If you mean the poster when you talk about the demonization of peoples I didn't agree with it's focus on brown skinned people but if they had featured mixed people in the poster I would have deemed it fair comment.

Wanting to limit immigration is not necessarily racist (though it could be) and the population of the country has gone up massively in the last 15 years and it is easy where I live to feel "swamped" by increasing numbers of people (its getting pretty crowded)

Unlike Farage I am quite happy with people speaking different languages on the tube and could not care less where people are from with the one exception that unlike you(from what you've said) I feel completely fine to disagree with racism and at the same time to criticise radical Islam for its own predudices and infringing the rights of others.

If you are truly liberal and non racist you should be prepared to criticise abuses wherever they take place rather than ignore them for a few decades while you hope they go away (as I think you said?).

 

[Old Blue 2]

As I've said many times previously, most of the large population areas of the UK voted to remain, including the capital cities of each country of the United Kingdom. I'm sure you're not discounting the small towns that voted to leave on the basis that they're small and 'insignificant'. Lets at least be consistent.

So by your logic, Bruce, the fact that a large (but minority) part of the UK voted to Remain means that the overall collective country should not follow the democratic decision...?

Do me a favour - go live in Scotland... Fed up with that crap!

 

[Clint Planet]

Im surprised that you can be as against neoliberal globalisation as I am and still be pro EU.

I have many problems with the EU but I don't for a second think that the UK leaving it will make things better. We will become a first-world banana republic, jumping ever more to the USA's tune. And we'll dance a merry little "anti-wog" dance doing it, of course.

We needed to stay in and fight for change.

If you mean the poster when you talk about the demonization of peoples I didn't agree with it's focus on brown skinned people but if they had featured mixed people in the poster I would have deemed it fair comment.

[edited]

If you are truly liberal and non racist you should be prepared to criticise abuses wherever they take place rather than ignore them for a few decades while you hope they go away (as I think you said?).

Sorry, could you clarify?

 

[Old Blue 2]

Okay, so it's perfectly fine to call Malta insignificant on account of its size and lack of economic clout, but it's not okay to do the same between regions of the UK?

I never called Malta insignificant. I never mentioned Malta. Love the place. Been there on holiday many times.

The regions of the UK are what they are: Regions, a part of the composite whole. And for as long as that remains, any UK-wide vote applies to the whole of the UK. There is no opt-out of the result for the constituent parts of the UK who were part of the UK on 23rd June 20165. Period. Or do you see it not being so, given that the way you voted (I presume 'Remain') did not carry the day...???

 

[peteblue]

I have many problems with the EU but I don't for a second think that the UK leaving it will make things better. We will become a first-world banana republic, jumping ever more to the USA's tune. And we'll dance a merry little "anti-wog" dance doing it, of course.

We needed to stay in and fight for change.

[edited]



Sorry, could you clarify?

Clint, please don't take this personally, but you have used the words 'bloody foreigners' and 'wog' in your last couple of posts and you know that if someone else were to use those words as descriptors you would be the first to denounce them as racists. Now I know you are not a racist but probably neither is anyone else on here and I for one feel uncomfortable when this sort of language is used. No offence, but it doesn't help your points......

 

[JonS]

I have many problems with the EU but I don't for a second think that the UK leaving it will make things better. We will become a first-world banana republic, jumping ever more to the USA's tune. And we'll dance a merry little "anti-wog" dance doing it, of course.

We needed to stay in and fight for change.

[edited]



Sorry, could you clarify?

Well you've explained the rationale for wanting to stay in the EU a bit better (or at least I understand it a bit better) so even though I disagree that we will necessarily retreat into "anti-wog" mentality we are entitled to our respective opinions.

I think there is zero chance of changing the EU which is one reason I voted Brexit though the main one was to have full sovereignity to do anything we want including radically change the economic system (which is why most ultra left people would also have voted Brexit). Of course in practice I don't think the economic system will change but at least we have the power to do it now.

I don't remember that Turkey poster (I remember the other "Swamped" one) but don't agree with it.

However the pro EU campaign used fear just as much albeit in a slightly different way.

My comments about you not criticising radical Islam were related to your comments a few days ago when I was talking about the current prevalent brand of Islam, Saudi Wahaabiism and while agreeing with me about it you did not seem to want to deal with it now and instead hoped things would change in a few decades.

If I have misremembered or misquoted you on the above, then apologies

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I never called Malta insignificant. I never mentioned Malta. Love the place. Been there on holiday many times.

The regions of the UK are what they are: Regions, a part of the composite whole. And for as long as that remains, any UK-wide vote applies to the whole of the UK. There is no opt-out of the result for the constituent parts of the UK who were part of the UK on 23rd June 20165. Period. Or do you see it not being so, given that the way you voted (I presume 'Remain') did not carry the day...???

Not for the first time, you seem to have jumped in without reading. My comment was a direct response to Tim saying Malta should but out of these discussions on account of being tiny and insignificant. I merely asked if we should regard areas of the UK that are equally 'insignificant' in terms of population and GDP in the same way.

 

[JonS]

Clint, please don't take this personally, but you have used the words 'bloody foreigners' and 'wog' in your last couple of posts and you know that if someone else were to use those words as descriptors you would be the first to denounce them as racists. Now I know you are not a racist but probably neither is anyone else on here and I for one feel uncomfortable when this sort of language is used. No offence, but it doesn't help your points......

Think Clint's using them ironically and quoting what he feels are others views. Though I don't agree with him on many points I understand his usage and haven't got a problem with it.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Not for the first time, you seem to have jumped in without reading. My comment was a direct response to Tim saying Malta should but out of these discussions on account of being tiny and insignificant. I merely asked if we should regard areas of the UK that are equally 'insignificant' in terms of population and GDP in the same way.

Not so, Bruce. Go back to your post #100. Read it. You directly quote me, and go on about Malta. Completely off-topic and not germaine to the post of mine you quoted. The issue of Malta was raised by another member, not me. I don't have a dog in that fight...

 

[dandydan]

Clint, please don't take this personally, but you have used the words 'bloody foreigners' and 'wog' in your last couple of posts and you know that if someone else were to use those words as descriptors you would be the first to denounce them as racists. Now I know you are not a racist but probably neither is anyone else on here and I for one feel uncomfortable when this sort of language is used. No offence, but it doesn't help your points......

The uneducated racists he laments will become societies most vulnerable in need of help come the next general election.

 

[Eggs]

...I wonder if these negotiations need independent arbitration. I have no idea that might be, but I expect the amount each side think the 'divorce settlement' should be will vastly different. It will need some form of defined calculation formula.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

...I wonder if these negotiations need independent arbitration. I have no idea that might be, but I expect the amount each side think the 'divorce settlement' should be will vastly different. It will need some form of defined calculation formula.

Should be quite straight forward I'd have thought, as the 'divorce settlement' is merely honouring agreements already made. Providing that claim is a legal one to make, then it seems pretty straight forward.

 

[Eggs]

Should be quite straight forward I'd have thought, as the 'divorce settlement' is merely honouring agreements already made. Providing that claim is a legal one to make, then it seems pretty straight forward.

..I somehow think it'll be far from straightforward.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

..I somehow think it'll be far from straightforward.

Don't they know who we are? Hopefully Davies will march in singing '2 world wars, 1 world cup'. That'll show 'em.