Current Affairs The Landmarks of Slavery;

[Spadge Vernacular]

I'm assuming he means "in the USA/UK" etc.

Systemic racism is about the majority who runs institutions. For example, Japan are mad racist towards whites/blacks to a crazy degree, so whites - as the minority there - can't be systemically racist towards the Japanese, but they can be personally racist.

Aye, it is the same in almost all country colour and creed, black and white.

It is also the case that African immigrants, for example, can experience a form of internalised racism and discrimination from host countries black population, such as African Americans toward African immigrants. It has resulted in what some term 'the diaspora war'.

 

[coollino]

@coollino IT’S HAPPENING!!

Took a bit longer than expected

 

[Kenshin]

Have you read 1984?

Yes?

Why?

 

[coollino]

Yes?

Why?

As you will know it's the Party enforcing it, not the people.

If anything, this is more like Animal Farm.

 

[tsubaki]

The statue was placed solely to celebrate his philanthropy. There wasn't a need to acknowledge what he did, because it was never put in place to celebrate his slave trading.

It's you who is trying to redefine what the statue stood for. My whole point is that the statue reflects the context of the society that erected it, not ours.

There absolutely is a wider argument about what statues get torn down; it's backtracking to an insane degree to say there isn't. And it's always for the same reason - what they are celebrated for in the context of their own era is being retroactively diluted by those in the modern era who disagree with a part of their lives they were not celebrated for with those statues.

I know this is your point, but it’s a really laboured and daft one.

People in Bristol had issues with that statue because of what Colston did. That’s why it ended up in the water. Why the people who put it up more than a hundred and fifty years ago is not especially relevant.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

I have for a few weeks in Ghana. Got treated really well. Felt huge amounts of guilt, knowing what the reaction would be to a random African guy walking through my bigoted village. People would stop me in the street and chat away. I’d be thinking ‘what’s the angle here’ then they’d just wander off. Got called ‘white boy’ several times but always in a jovial manner and I found it very funny.

We Obroni's hold a number of positions in the Ghanaian psyche

I am glad you enjoyed the experience, mate.

 

[tsubaki]

Not responding to anyone in particular but...

If you want an end to racism, you need to not cause massive divides between races. I agreed with the BLM sentiment entirely until they started gathering in large numbers in the midst of Covid and defacing and pulling down statues, now as is so often the case on the net, I am finding myself getting entrenched on a side I don't really agree with.
I'm now in danger of bordering on racist in an attempt to say how wrong it is that they are destroying historic monuments.

History is history, if you are going to move on, don't eradicate the past...learn from it, but also get some context people ffs.

Churchill's statue is not celebrating a slave trader, that is not what the statue is about, it's about freedom, defying the odds, standing up to injustice, underdogs winning through sacrifice and determination, a leader taking a tiny country to war with a power threatening to destroy the world and combined with our allies... ultimately winning.
If anything I would of thought these values would of been appreciated by this group.

I may even of had a little respect for what they wanted to do if they went through appropriate channels, as it is, the group doing this (not all of BLM, but those responsible) are just a bunch of vandals defying lockdown, putting everyone at risk, and I cannot respect that on any level.

Which is of course why the statues angle has been pushed so much by the political classes, the media and the usual suspects here. They are going to get rid of Churchill! They aren’t worthy of your support!

It’s nothing more than a distraction. In two months of protests in London the worst incident was a far right gimp pissing next to a dead coppers memorial. In the entire country, *one* statue was torn down, a statue that there had been arguments over for years.

BLM is not an iconoclastic movement; it’s focused on ensuring justice for all.

 

[roydo]

I know this is your point, but it’s a really laboured and daft one.

People in Bristol had issues with that statue because of what Colston did. That’s why it ended up in the water. Why the people who put it up more than a hundred and fifty years ago is not especially relevant.

We are being asked about retaining this new one or not. Personally, I would prefer a statue of a local black man who led the local movement to end discrimination within Bristol Buses, in the 1950s iirc.

Its a more positive message, and has local connections. (That said, the new one might be a local person I guess)

 

[Wizard]

This replacement is basically an art-installation stunt by some guy from London. The Bristol Mayor has already said it didn't have permission and that the future of the plinth will be decided by Britolians. The way it should be

People get so wound up so quickly

 

[tsubaki]

We are being asked about retaining this new one or not. Personally, I would prefer a statue of a local black man who led the local movement to end discrimination within Bristol Buses, in the 1950s iirc.

Its a more positive message, and has local connections. (That said, the new one might be a local person I guess)

I think she is, but I thought even the artist acknowledged it’s only a short term thing?

FWIW the best idea I saw was (and sorry if it was you who mentioned it earlier) the Banksy one about turning it into a memorial of it being pulled down.

 

[arminisgod]

We are being asked about retaining this new one or not. Personally, I would prefer a statue of a local black man who led the local movement to end discrimination within Bristol Buses, in the 1950s iirc.

Its a more positive message, and has local connections. (That said, the new one might be a local person I guess)

why does there need to be a statue at all?

 

[Kenshin]

As you will know it's the Party enforcing it, not the people.

If anything, this is more like Animal Farm.

Ahh but that is taking the quote in direct reference to the book it came from. Assuming then the whole book is condensed into those few sentences.

I am using it as a text that can be applied to current reality. An explanation rather than a defenition.

Which I believe in cases like this, especially the replacement (if only temporary) of someone in your likeness is directly relatable to that quote.

You can probably draw more comparisons from that book to what is being forced now. For example

Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past

if thought can corrupt language then language can also corrupt thought.

Not merely the validity of experience, but the very existence of external reality was tacitly denied by their philosophy. The heresy of heresies was common sense

To name a few.

The idea of right and wrong without discussion but with aggression and force is just as bad as the problem to begin with.

 

[Kenshin]

We are being asked about retaining this new one or not. Personally, I would prefer a statue of a local black man who led the local movement to end discrimination within Bristol Buses, in the 1950s iirc.

Its a more positive message, and has local connections. (That said, the new one might be a local person I guess)

Here's the thing.

Why black? Why does it have to be part of the slave trade history?

Why can't they erect a different statue of something else in Bristol's history?


The funny thing is , they want to replace a statue of someone who did great things for the city based on the way he obtained the money to do it. They also want to replace him with a statue honouring someone who teared down a statue. They changed nothing but help rip down a statue , if that is what they want to honour then the movement has no credibility other than their own self importance

 

[Tubey]

Not responding to anyone in particular but...

If you want an end to racism, you need to not cause massive divides between races. I agreed with the BLM sentiment entirely until they started gathering in large numbers in the midst of Covid and defacing and pulling down statues, now as is so often the case on the net, I am finding myself getting entrenched on a side I don't really agree with.
I'm now in danger of bordering on racist in an attempt to say how wrong it is that they are destroying historic monuments.

History is history, if you are going to move on, don't eradicate the past...learn from it, but also get some context people ffs.

Churchill's statue is not celebrating a slave trader, that is not what the statue is about, it's about freedom, defying the odds, standing up to injustice, underdogs winning through sacrifice and determination, a leader taking a tiny country to war with a power threatening to destroy the world and combined with our allies... ultimately winning.
If anything I would of thought these values would of been appreciated by this group.

I may even of had a little respect for what they wanted to do if they went through appropriate channels, as it is, the group doing this (not all of BLM, but those responsible) are just a bunch of vandals defying lockdown, putting everyone at risk, and I cannot respect that on any level.

I find myself in that boat a lot. Fighting racism and systematic injustice towards them? All for it. Then they do stupid crap that I just fundamentally disagree with and forces me away from that side.

Same with trans rights - all for it, strongly so in fact, the principle that people should be free to identify as what they like if it makes them happy and hurts no one is a fundamental belief of mine... but then they advocate stupid crap and, again, suddenly I'm "the enemy".

It's infuriating, really is. I agree 1000% with your post. Extremism is a cancer that murders worthwhile causes.

 

[daza_1973]

Here's the thing.

Why black? Why does it have to be part of the slave trade history?

Why can't they erect a different statue of something else in Bristol's history?


The funny thing is , they want to replace a statue of someone who did great things for the city based on the way he obtained the money to do it. They also want to replace him with a statue honouring someone who teared down a statue. They changed nothing but help rip down a statue , if that is what they want to honour then the movement has no credibility other than their own self importance

Bloody, peoples front of Judea - type antics...