Current Affairs The Labour Party

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Examples of the issues we are blind to?

Complains about generalisations by making generalisations

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Economic poverty and lack of prospects (while labelling those who vote for something different to this as racists).

Believing your views are better than theirs (and again that they are racists).

Blind to pressures in communities caused by increased population size.

Possible undercutting of wages by immigrants.

Lack of availability of social housing to people who at the same time witness people who seem to be more recent immigrants given said social housing.

Reluctance of the media to discuss these issues and labelling of those who want them discussed as, yes you've guessed it, racists.

Refusal of the media and liberals to discuss the issue of the current radical form of Islam that is in our communities and the politically correct labelling of anyone who would liked it discussed as...racist.

The fact that those who are preventing these things being addresses are often reletively comfortable in their own communities and don't have to directly deal with any of the above themselves and that if they did we night see some of their own predudices or nimbyism coming out of the woodwork
 
Economic poverty and lack of prospects (while labelling those who vote for something different to this as racists).

Believing your views are better than theirs (and again that they are racists).

Blind to pressures in communities caused by increased population size.

Possible undercutting of wages by immigrants.

Lack of availability of social housing to people who at the same time witness people who seem to be more recent immigrants given said social housing.

Reluctance of the media to discuss these issues and labelling of those who want them discussed as, yes you've guessed it, racists.

Refusal of the media and liberals to discuss the issue of the current radical form of Islam that is in our communities and the politically correct labelling of anyone who would liked it discussed as...racist.

The fact that those who are preventing these things being addresses are often reletively comfortable in their own communities and don't have to directly deal with any of the above themselves and that if they did we night see some of their own predudices or nimbyism coming out of the woodwork


This is where you are getting confused. I consider myself a working class person who voted remain. I can identify with economic poverty and lack of opportunity. I am not blind to the pressures of the rise of population and the housing problems in this country are huge.

However, in my opinion, Voting to leave the EU will not fix any of those problems.

Let's take your social housing comment. You seem to come to the conclusion that the lack of social housing available for British people is due to immigration. Do you not think that it is probably due to the fact that social housing in this country is increasingly a thing of the past? Do you not think that the answer could be to build more social housing so people have places to live?
 
This is where you are getting confused. I consider myself a working class person who voted remain. I can identify with economic poverty and lack of opportunity. I am not blind to the pressures of the rise of population and the housing problems in this country are huge.

However, in my opinion, Voting to leave the EU will not fix any of those problems.

Let's take your social housing comment. You seem to come to the conclusion that the lack of social housing available for British people is due to immigration. Do you not think that it is probably due to the fact that social housing in this country is increasingly a thing of the past? Do you not think that the answer could be to build more social housing so people have places to live?

Yes I do mate, and respect to you for your opinions. But the fact is that successive governments have not built more social housing so people born in this country feel let down by these governments, particularly when their son or daughter can't get a council house and they see huge families of immigrants being housed instead. It therefore appears that the system is unfair to native people and immigrants who haven't been here long are getting more favourable treatment
 
Refusal of the media and liberals to discuss the issue of the current radical form of Islam that is in our communities and the politically correct labelling of anyone who would liked it discussed as...racist.

You can see why this issue is easily hijacked by racists to pedal an agenda, so in some cases the people 'discussing' it are racist. However, I hear sensible debate about this all the time, both in the media and in communities. I mean, I'm not sure what this had to do with the EU result, though.
 
Given that it will be a choice between whatever deal is on offer or no deal at all what is the point in that?

Because that isn't the choice on offer. There is nothing in Article 50 that says it cannot be withdrawn before the end of the negotiation period and the country leaves, and a clear legal argument that you can (based on the previous article which talks about countries applying to join, and which also doesn't say that a candidate nation could withdraw an accession request even though such a course of action is demonstrably legal in international law).
 
Yes I do mate, and respect to you for your opinions. But the fact is that successive governments have not built more social housing so people born in this country feel let down by these governments, particularly when their son or daughter can't get a council house and they see huge families of immigrants being housed instead. It therefore appears that the system is unfair to native people and immigrants who haven't been here long are getting more favourable treatment

So you admit that in that instance, the person who voted to leave under the impression that social housing would be sorted (as you stated it a difficulty of life which remainders can't understand) would be wrong or misled?

This is why I said you were getting confused with people who voted remain, according to you, not understanding the problems of the working class person. Many working class people voted to remain, too. They share the same problems but believe in different ways of how they could be solved, or different reasons for them happening.

Like you allude to in your post, the problem in this instance is government. The cause and solution of each of the problems you posted above, I believe, are also down to government.
 
You can see why this issue is easily hijacked by racists to pedal an agenda, so in some cases the people 'discussing' it are racist. However, I hear sensible debate about this all the time, both in the media and in communities. I mean, I'm not sure what this had to do with the EU result, though.

Yes I can see how it can be highjacked by racists to pedal an agenda but I cant agree these issues are being discussed and debated openly and I believe that it is the fact that they aren't that is driving people to the far right.

Id like to see open discussions (free from rancour - which I believe would be possible if open discussion was encouraged) everywhere and certainly in the media about what is happening with Islam, wearing of the niqab and hijab, what has changed in interpretation of Islam in recent years and why this is. How much sympathy to terrorism (or sexism) there is in Muslim communities) etc.

Id like Muslims' themselves to be drawn into the debate.

Id like to see open discussion on immigration (not just fear mongering on one side and head in sand denial on the other).

If an open climate is allowed to flourish people feel able to say what they think and feel less excluded and more listened to.
 
This is where you are getting confused. I consider myself a working class person who voted remain. I can identify with economic poverty and lack of opportunity. I am not blind to the pressures of the rise of population and the housing problems in this country are huge.

However, in my opinion, Voting to leave the EU will not fix any of those problems.

Let's take your social housing comment. You seem to come to the conclusion that the lack of social housing available for British people is due to immigration. Do you not think that it is probably due to the fact that social housing in this country is increasingly a thing of the past? Do you not think that the answer could be to build more social housing so people have places to live?

The problem being with social housing while in the EU was no matter how many you build. Under freedom of movement you couldn't ever plan for the number needed, as it was an unknown figure, you build say 20000 and more people arrived as is there right and you are back to square one and going round in circles.
Saying that it's a problem that isn't going to go away even when we leave ,but at least we can begin to manage the problem as we can define the numbers or right to access to social housing.
Going to be a big problem in the coming years as people can no longer get on the housing ladder due to low pay and uncertainty of long term employment.
 
Because that isn't the choice on offer. There is nothing in Article 50 that says it cannot be withdrawn before the end of the negotiation period and the country leaves, and a clear legal argument that you can (based on the previous article which talks about countries applying to join, and which also doesn't say that a candidate nation could withdraw an accession request even though such a course of action is demonstrably legal in international law).

So it would be a choice between the deal and no brexit? It will be the government that decides on that and they have already committed to leaving... therefore it will be a choice between the deal on offer or no deal
 
So it would be a choice between the deal and no brexit? It will be the government that decides on that and they have already committed to leaving... therefore it will be a choice between the deal on offer or no deal

No - it will be a choice between the deal, leaving with no deal, or not leaving.
 
Economic poverty and lack of prospects (while labelling those who vote for something different to this as racists).

I'm not sure there has been any lack of this really. Indeed, many have argued that the rise of populism is a direct result of the 'left behind generation' who have lost out in the globalised world. I would question quite what it is about Brexit that makes people think the situation will change?

Believing your views are better than theirs (and again that they are racists).

Again though, I think this has an element of basis to it, not least because of Gove's ridiculous notion that we shouldn't believe a word 'experts' say. That's become a catch-all phrase to dismiss anyone that has given an issue consideration if their conclusion doesn't match the one wanted by leave voters. I think we can all agree that evidence and or at least detailed consideration are ideal when it comes to thinking about a decision, but there is a distinct feeling that such things are dismissed in favour of back of a fag packet ruminations and an urging to trust them coz experts are rubbish. There isn't really a weight of evidence suggesting Brexit is a good thing, is there?

Blind to pressures in communities caused by increased population size.

This is the crucial thing - population size. We've discussed this almost to death, but I've made this point what must be dozens of times now. The way our government operates, small towns would be in trouble if they had a jump in population from anywhere, whether another part of Britain or from Bulgaria. The problem isn't where the people come from, it's the heavily centralised way government money is spent, meaning that local councils have very little flexibility to adapt to population change. They are also burdened by extremely restrictive planning regulations and NIMBYism, which has meant house building has been too low for a generation. These are all things the government has the power to fix without worrying the EU at all, but they've preferred to pass the buck and pin the blame on foreigners rather than on themselves.

Possible undercutting of wages by immigrants.

As per before though, whenever this has been analysed, it hasn't been shown to occur. What is/will happen is that those with low skills will suffer in the labour market, whether because of competition from abroad (offshoring jobs overseas), from machines or whatever. The answer to this shouldn't be to bury your head in the sand and hope it'll be okay, it's to make much better efforts to ensure people have skills, not just when they leave school, but throughout life. Again though, that would require a government to take responsibility, and they aren't. Even now, the amount of attention given to adult education is non-existent.

Lack of availability of social housing to people who at the same time witness people who seem to be more recent immigrants given said social housing.

See above about house building being a planning/NIMBYism issue. Regards to your latter point, that simply isn't true, and indeed one of the concessions Cameron secured that was sneered at by Farage et al was to bar new EU migrants from accessing welfare for a period of time when they first move here.

Reluctance of the media to discuss these issues and labelling of those who want them discussed as, yes you've guessed it, racists.

The media haven't discussed these issues full stop, and I'm afraid to say they aren't the medium for such issues to be discussed, largely because they're far too complex to be boiled down into a 1,000 word article. I know because I've had to do it, and it's hard to boil a 100 page paper down into a few hundred words, and then compare the alternative perspectives, create a human angle and so on, all in 1,000-1,500 words.

The thing is, you need an open mind for these things and not to dismiss opposing points of view as being 'Googled', and there is a lot of evidence to suggest we increasingly exist in an echo chamber and seek out 'news' that confirms our point of view. Even on here we've probably had more diversity than many places, but I doubt that many have changed their minds a great deal.

Refusal of the media and liberals to discuss the issue of the current radical form of Islam that is in our communities and the politically correct labelling of anyone who would liked it discussed as...racist.

That's a very different issue though, and I'd hate to think we have jumped out of the EU because of radical Islam.

The fact that those who are preventing these things being addresses are often reletively comfortable in their own communities and don't have to directly deal with any of the above themselves and that if they did we night see some of their own predudices or nimbyism coming out of the woodwork

That's politics though isn't it? Very few actually live a 'normal' life, but I will say that from the demographic profiling of the referendum, it seems that remain voters have much more exposure to migrants than leave voters. I quite agree that when you have exposure to things, you tend to regard them as less scary, which is a great thing.
 
@Bruce Wayne excuse my lack of proper quoting (difficult to quote just a portion using my phone) but I never mentioned immigrants benefits - I agree EU immigrants are largely stopped from claiming benefits unless they are working or have worked first. Similarly when talking about people seeing immigrants given council houses I wasn't talking about EU immigrants but was talking about non EU immigrants given the housing and this is definitely happening (not necessarily above British born citizens - but according to the same rules of priority need).

I was bringing all this up not necessarily as an Anti EU argument but as an explanation of why people feel excluded or feel low prospects for themselves.
 
@Bruce Wayne excuse my lack of proper quoting (difficult to quote just a portion using my phone) but I never mentioned immigrants benefits - I agree EU immigrants are largely stopped from claiming benefits unless they are working or have worked first. Similarly when talking about people seeing immigrants given council houses I wasn't talking about EU immigrants but was talking about non EU immigrants given the housing and this is definitely happening (not necessarily above British born citizens - but according to the same rules of priority need).

I was bringing all this up not necessarily as an Anti EU argument but as an explanation of why people feel excluded or feel low prospects for themselves.

No problem at all - I'm utterly hopeless at typing on my phone so you have my respect for doing what you did :)

I can't really argue with that, and there are things that need to improve, and bar the odd tub-thumper I don't think many would dispute that. It's the medicine that people are disputing, and there's a sense that Brexit is the medicine, when there are things we can do within existing government that could probably make significant improvements in these areas. We have the power already, but it needs better government.

Indeed, you could easily make the argument that Brexit will be so tremendous a burden for the next x years that most other things will be put to one side, thus making things worse for those left behind rather than better.
 
No problem at all - I'm utterly hopeless at typing on my phone so you have my respect for doing what you did :)

I can't really argue with that, and there are things that need to improve, and bar the odd tub-thumper I don't think many would dispute that. It's the medicine that people are disputing, and there's a sense that Brexit is the medicine, when there are things we can do within existing government that could probably make significant improvements in these areas. We have the power already, but it needs better government.

Indeed, you could easily make the argument that Brexit will be so tremendous a burden for the next x years that most other things will be put to one side, thus making things worse for those left behind rather than better.

I agree Brexit alone would not be a solution for any of this but if we wanted to try something different we would be more able to do so IMO out of the EU which is heavily entrenched with the current economic system. I agree things could get worse in the short term because of it but IMO there is no reason why they should in the longer term
 
I agree Brexit alone would not be a solution for any of this but if we wanted to try something different we would be more able to do so IMO out of the EU which is heavily entrenched with the current economic system. I agree things could get worse in the short term because of it but IMO there is no reason why they should in the longer term

Maybe, but we could also do an awful lot more within the powers we already have. The EU only really influence the number of migrants we can let in and the trade rules we abide by. I really don't think the migration numbers will change much, and if we really are to 'trade with the world', then it's hard to see other countries allowing us to adopt highly protectionist policies any more than the EU (rightly) did.
 
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