Current Affairs The Labour Party

[tsubaki]

But you could equally bring out stats showing the big increase in the number of poorer kids going to university. The elephant in the room is the parent/s and the huge role they play.

The quality of parents (and parenting) hasn't gone up or down in that time, though.

As for the increase in university attendance, the point there is that (a) they are getting into tens of thousands of debt whilst doing so and (b) the increase in graduates - especially in their year-groups - devalues degrees to the point that they are now paid less and have worse terms and conditions when compared to previous years, hence the rise of unpaid internships and whatnot.

Combine the two - and add the general economic picture anyway - and you have what most studies have found, which is that they are worse off than their predecessors under the grant system were and that social mobility is falling.

 

[peteblue]

It's mental how you ignore the facts that multiple studies have concluded that selective education simply doesn't work.

It does for those selected......

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The quality of parents (and parenting) hasn't gone up or down in that time, though.

And neither has social mobility

As for the increase in university attendance, the point there is that (a) they are getting into tens of thousands of debt whilst doing so and (b) the increase in graduates - especially in their year-groups - devalues degrees to the point that they are now paid less and have worse terms and conditions when compared to previous years, hence the rise of unpaid internships and whatnot.

Combine the two - and add the general economic picture anyway - and you have what most studies have found, which is that they are worse off than their predecessors under the grant system were and that social mobility is falling.

It does sound a bit like wanting your cake and eating it though. We want more youngsters going to uni, but when they do, it's bad because it creates more competition in the labour market.

 

[peteblue]

So stopping dumbing-down standards would be a good start wouldn't it?

State sponsored scholarships at public schools with parental means-testing might be a better solution for you, but the best performing school systems internationally are fully integrated, I believe.

That may be a way forward, just so long as poor kids get the opportunity. But if something was put in place you can put money on the next Labour government abolishing it and attacking public schools. They have just this doctrine now that anything that promotes excellence should be removed......

 

[orchard]

The Conservative governments can harldly claim to pursue/promote excellence either Pete, let's be unpartisan here!

That may be a way forward, just so long as poor kids get the opportunity. But if something was put in place you can put money on the next Labour government abolishing it and attacking public schools. They have just this doctrine now that anything that promotes excellence should be removed......

 

[tsubaki]

And neither has social mobility

er - it has though, please read the links in my posts above.

It does sound a bit like wanting your cake and eating it though. We want more youngsters going to uni, but when they do, it's bad because it creates more competition in the labour market.

That is because you missed the first bit out. Having more graduates is not a bad thing, indeed much of the damage could be offset by the increasing requirement for degree holders for certain jobs (nursing, teaching, social work, even policing soon), but when you load people with tens of thousands of pounds debt as well it as a ruinous effect - those poor kids are now so far behind their luckier, richer counterparts that the chances of them catching up are minimal.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

er - it has though, please read the links in my posts above.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/may/22/social-mobility-data-charts

"Social mobility hasn't changed since the 1970s - and in some ways has got worse. For every one person born in the 1970s in the poorest fifth of society and going to university, there would be four undergrads from the top fifth of society. But if you were born in the 1980s, there would be five"

So the best part of 40 years with no change, despite a generation of free schooling and growing numbers going to university. It does kinda suggest free schooling and accessible university aren't the issue, doesn't it?

That is because you missed the first bit out. Having more graduates is not a bad thing, indeed much of the damage could be offset by the increasing requirement for degree holders for certain jobs (nursing, teaching, social work, even policing soon), but when you load people with tens of thousands of pounds debt as well it as a ruinous effect - those poor kids are now so far behind their luckier, richer counterparts that the chances of them catching up are minimal.

A debt that isn't payable until graduates are not poor. Indeed, payments aren't expected at all until graduates begin earning more than the average income for the entire country. That growing numbers of students from poor backgrounds attend university, despite the fees they have to pay when they're wealthy enough to repay them, suggests ones relative poverty upon enrollment is not a barrier to entry at all.

 

[peteblue]

The Conservative governments can harldly claim to pursue/promote excellence either Pete, let's be unpartisan here!

I could have claimed that this is a Labour thread, but you're right......

 

[Number_25]

It does for those selected......

So much for social mobility, eh?

 

[tsubaki]

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/may/22/social-mobility-data-charts

"Social mobility hasn't changed since the 1970s - and in some ways has got worse. For every one person born in the 1970s in the poorest fifth of society and going to university, there would be four undergrads from the top fifth of society. But if you were born in the 1980s, there would be five"

So the best part of 40 years with no change, despite a generation of free schooling and growing numbers going to university. It does kinda suggest free schooling and accessible university aren't the issue, doesn't it?

Bruce - please read the emboldened bit. Someone born in the 1970s would have gone to University (assuming they went at 18) in the years between 1988 and 1997. They would not have been exposed to the changes in the grant / tuition fee system in the way that someone born in the 1980s would have; that is why social mobility has worsened since then. That is my point.

A debt that isn't payable until graduates are not poor. Indeed, payments aren't expected at all until graduates begin earning more than the average income for the entire country. That growing numbers of students from poor backgrounds attend university, despite the fees they have to pay when they're wealthy enough to repay them, suggests ones relative poverty upon enrollment is not a barrier to entry at all.

That is just an absurd claim. The debt is payable after £17,775 earned before tax, which is quite a bit less than the average wage (which is between £22000 and £27000 depending on whether part time / gig work is included). Given that a debt-ridden student will also be having to fund a home, perhaps a family and may well be living in an area that costs more than normal (given that most of the jobs are in the south-east), having tens of thousands of student debt over them as well is going to have a considerable effect.

As for loads of them are going so it must be doing something right - perhaps that is because almost all professions now require degree qualifications in a way that they never used to.

 

[Eggs]

...listening to Lisa Nandy on the Sunday Politics Show you realise there is hope but I fear it'll be Corbynists and Momentum for the foreseeable future. Unelectable but also an impotent opposition, not what the British Parliamentary system needs.

 

[edge]

...listening to Lisa Nandy on the Sunday Politics Show you realise there is hope but I fear it'll be Corbynists and Momentum for the foreseeable future. Unelectable but also an impotent opposition, not what the British Parliamentary system needs.

worst Labour party I can recall. unfortunately populated mostly with people who have no real life experience and to London centric they are mostly a product of a system that after nearly forty years of an education system that has peddled the mantra of multiculturalism/ free movement and think like me your wrong, were no debate is allowed as your a racist/ sexist ect, from the teachers to the students they cant like a religious cult understand why outsiders don't see the truth as they see it, first change the people have had the chance to actually vote on taking a different path Brexit and they have taken it.
The Labour party is doing the same as all the believers do , like scientologist ect banned closer together when challenged instead of questioning themselves and why others think they are wrong.
The labour party is peddling a message that is to narrow and doesn't embrace outsiders to think they are speaking for anyone other than the already converted.
They are finished as a party, unless the current crop are culled and they can gain a wider audience's trust that they have some relevance to there lives.

 

[orchard]

Give us an example mate!

worst Labour party I can recall. unfortunately populated mostly with people who have no real life experience and to London centric they are mostly a product of a system that after nearly forty years of an education system that has peddled the mantra of multiculturalism/ free movement and think like me your wrong, were no debate is allowed as your a racist/ sexist ect, from the teachers to the students they cant like a religious cult understand why outsiders don't see the truth as they see it, first change the people have had the chance to actually vote on taking a different path Brexit and they have taken it.
The Labour party is doing the same as all the believers do , like scientologist ect banned closer together when challenged instead of questioning themselves and why others think they are wrong.
The labour party is peddling a message that is to narrow and doesn't embrace outsiders to think they are speaking for anyone other than the already converted.
They are finished as a party, unless the current crop are culled and they can gain a wider audience's trust that they have some relevance to there lives.

 

[edge]

Give us an example mate!

what of ?
people like Abbot, Shami , Thornberry ect or
the fact the option polls ,( well if you can take any notice if them)are showing them at a historical low, they are not connecting with a wide section of voters.
or that like myself people I work with and family long time voters and union members , do not really feel like they are remotely speaking for us , I really don't feel anything in common with a lot of them , as far removed from me as some tories and will not be voting next time out, its shocking the numbers that have said they will not bother even as an anti tory stance.
policy wise, lost the trust long time back on immigration for instance , failure last time in government to renationalise the rail despite promises to do so and taking union money , via funding for Prescot was one for me personally.

 

[orchard]

Cheers. I know there isn't a lot of choice out there, but surely not voting at all will play right into the hands of those that are all too willing to ride rough-shod over what you value too? No other parties that you could vote for?
What's your own MP like?

what of ?
people like Abbot, Shami , Thornberry ect or
the fact the option polls ,( well if you can take any notice if them)are showing them at a historical low,
or that like myself people I work with and family long time voters and union members , do not really feel like they are remotely speaking for us , I really don't feel anything in common with a lot of them , as far removed from me as some tories and will not be voting next time out, its shocking the numbers that have said they will not bother even as an anti tory stance.
policy wise, lost the trust long time back on immigration for instance , failure last time in government to renationalise the rail despite promises to do so and taking union money , via funding for Prescot was one for me personally.