Current Affairs The Labour Party

[tsubaki]

They did for those who passed the 11 plus......

The main way in which they worked was by allowing the likes of Starmer an easier way to get into good universities, which with the maintenance grant and no fees was a good way of giving smart but poor kids a leg up.

Now that the maintenance grant is largely gone, and fees approach £35,000 (for the top two anyway), that leg up is no longer available - so getting grammar schools back (or indeed expanding the free schools system) is largely a waste of money.

 

[peteblue]

The main way in which they worked was by allowing the likes of Starmer an easier way to get into good universities, which with the maintenance grant and no fees was a good way of giving smart but poor kids a leg up.

Now that the maintenance grant is largely gone, and fees approach £35,000 (for the top two anyway), that leg up is no longer available - so getting grammar schools back (or indeed expanding the free schools system) is largely a waste of money.

The first issue is to get people to agree that giving poor kids an opportunity is a good thing. Funding mechanisms can always be provided once there is a will to do something. I've said before that having come from a very poor background and going to grammar school changed my life, and I would not deny that to any other child.....

 

[neil999]

The first issue is to get people to agree that giving poor kids an opportunity is a good thing. Funding mechanisms can always be provided once there is a will to do something. I've said before that having come from a very poor background and going to grammar school changed my life, and I would not deny that to any other child.....

what do you reckon would have happened to little pete who didnt go to grammar school?

lets call him little pete 2

 

[peteblue]

what do you reckon would have happened to little pete who didnt go to grammar school?

lets call him little pete 2

Probably the boss of the largest crime syndicate ever seen........

 

[neil999]

Probably the boss of the largest crime syndicate ever seen........

bet you regret going to grammar school now lol

 

[peteblue]

bet you regret going to grammar school now lol

Yeah, but you are lucky that I did.......

 

[dead_soft]

The first issue is to get people to agree that giving poor kids an opportunity is a good thing. Funding mechanisms can always be provided once there is a will to do something. I've said before that having come from a very poor background and going to grammar school changed my life, and I would not deny that to any other child.....

No, your starting from the argument that 11 plus and grammar schools are evidently good. Many people who want to give poor kids an opportunity do not want to do it with grammar schools as they carry very little supportive evidence that they are actually beneficial.
You saying 'but it helped me' means absolutely nothing. It is anecdotal evidence. I went to a grammar school, I am still against grammar schools. Going to a grammar school doesn't inherently imbue your argument with insight

 

[1966efc]

YouGov/Times – CON 43, LAB 25, LD 11, UKIP 10
29 MAR 2017

 

[peteblue]

No, your starting from the argument that 11 plus and grammar schools are evidently good. Many people who want to give poor kids an opportunity do not want to do it with grammar schools as they carry very little supportive evidence that they are actually beneficial.
You saying 'but it helped me' means absolutely nothing. It is anecdotal evidence. I went to a grammar school, I am still against grammar schools. Going to a grammar school doesn't inherently imbue your argument with insight

So what is your solution to give poor kids an opportunity.....I mean successive governments have had about 50 years to come up with a workable alternative......

 

[dead_soft]

So what is your solution to give poor kids an opportunity.....I mean successive governments have had about 50 years to come up with a workable alternative......

There are two things here. What do you mean by an opportunity? What opportunity? Social mobility? Jobs? University?

Second is, grammar schools WERE the alternative and they have not done anything for the general working class (whether one or two individuals feel they have is immaterial) above general schooling.
We need a better education system for the whole country, there is no real evidence that grammar schools should be part of that

 

[peteblue]

There are two things here. What do you mean by an opportunity? What opportunity? Social mobility? Jobs? University?

Second is, grammar schools WERE the alternative and they have not done anything for the general working class (whether one or two individuals feel they have is immaterial) above general schooling.
We need a better education system for the whole country, there is no real evidence that grammar schools should be part of that

But after about 50 years no solution so far has surfaced. So how do you really help the poor to realise their potential. It's ok saying we 'need a better education system', that's what Labour said when they demolished the only way for poor kids to really progress. So what is this better education system, because while we continue to deny that Grammar schools did a great job, we continue to deny poor kids a way out.....

 

[dead_soft]

But after about 50 years no solution so far has surfaced. So how do you really help the poor to realise their potential. It's ok saying we 'need a better education system', that's what Labour said when they demolished the only way for poor kids to really progress. So what is this better education system, because while we continue to deny that Grammar schools did a great job, we continue to deny poor kids a way out.....

This is a really odd way to argue. You keep assuming that other people agree the grammar schools were a good thing. again, I am saying, grammar schools have no real supporting evidence that they were the only way for poor kids to progress or even one way. The only people who really campaign for grammar schools do so with little actual evidence based research and with a lot of belief that the old days were good.

If you are arguing to open more grammar schools and make them integral. What actual evidence do you have for this being a good thing?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

So what is your solution to give poor kids an opportunity.....I mean successive governments have had about 50 years to come up with a workable alternative......

Scrapping child benefits.

 

[peteblue]

This is a really odd way to argue. You keep assuming that other people agree the grammar schools were a good thing. again, I am saying, grammar schools have no real supporting evidence that they were the only way for poor kids to progress or even one way. The only people who really campaign for grammar schools do so with little actual evidence based research and with a lot of belief that the old days were good.

If you are arguing to open more grammar schools and make them integral. What actual evidence do you have for this being a good thing?

I keep assuming that Grammar schools were a good thing because you have repeatedly refused to mention any other way for poor kids to progress.......

 

[JonS]

No, your starting from the argument that 11 plus and grammar schools are evidently good. Many people who want to give poor kids an opportunity do not want to do it with grammar schools as they carry very little supportive evidence that they are actually beneficial.
You saying 'but it helped me' means absolutely nothing. It is anecdotal evidence. I went to a grammar school, I am still against grammar schools. Going to a grammar school doesn't inherently imbue your argument with insight

I think Pete's experience DOES imbue his argument with insight.

Though I do wonder what happens to those who didn't get to grammars, he's telling us what a positive effect going to a grammar had on his life and I have to listen to that