Current Affairs The Labour Party

[neil999]

Yes.

They (UKIP) were going to take over in Labour's northern heartlands, apparently.

A Remain supporting LP candidate pretty much retained the share of the vote they got in the General Election and UKIP were styopped in their tracks.

Democracy owes a thank you to Labour in that by-election. The Tories were prepared to soft peddle in Stoke and allow UKIP to establish a presence in the midlands that could easily have seen them become a real force.

tories vote went up, thats what kept labour in that seat..

 

[davek]

Wait'll you see the Tories implode after the deal May will get from Europe.

2020 is a good way away and there'll be a downturn in the economy and things will rapidly change.

Labour need to continue to purge themselves of the Blairite detritus, and keep pressing on the NHS issue - almost to the exclusion of all other policies. No one trusts the Tories on the NHS and people are rightly bricking it they are destroying the service.

 

[davek]

tories vote went up, thats what kept labour in that seat..

No mate. The Tories only switched resources over there to Stoke when they realised Nuttall's race was run and he wouldn't be able to carry out their plan of massively damaging Labour in its Midlands and northern heartland.

That Stoke by election was the biggest test last night. Copeland was a seat where the LP were losing ground in for years before this and the nuclear industry issue was the deciding factor given that some LP voters see Corbyn as a threat to their jobs.

 

[tsubaki]

As you'd expect I disagree with this post. The shift from left to right happened before Blair took control following the 1992 election defeat.

Nearly all governments rise and fall in the manner you've described. Nothing new here. You know the Batman quote, you live long enough to see yourself become the villain...

The labour party are doomed, if they keep lose safe seats to a government that is hardly getting ringing endorsements I can't see how you think it could be worse.

You have disagreed with the first bit and then ignored the rest.

Labour is in the state it is, and is led by the man that it is, because of the utter and repeated failure of the Progress / "progressive" / Blairite tendency. To remove Corbyn and put them back in charge - which is the only thing that will accept - wouldn't result in an improved electoral position (the papers might give them a pat on the back for getting rid of JC, but they have nothing to bribe the proprietors with any more), it wouldn't make them a more viable opposition (indeed they would oppose far less of what May is doing) or government (because of their general incompetence) and it would result in a massive collapse in the membership.

 

[hullefc]

The Tory vote has fallen in all the by elections since the 2015 election.

Stoke was supposed to be the humiliation of the Labour party in their 'heartlands' nothing was further from the truth. The rat Blair has appeared yet again on the scene to lead the revolt against Corbyn's leadership, aided and abetted by a compliant insipid media. They will have to wait another day to have their pound of flesh.

 

[1966efc]

A couple of inaccurate points have been made about Labour's path to victory in '97 and subsequent "failure" in '05.

Blair lost 4 million votes by the end of his tenure:

Kinnock, Smith and Blair gained the party 5 million votes over the course of a 12 year period during which the far left were expelled from the Party where it could be seen they were acting in concert to subvert it.

Blair gained the second largest popular vote in the party's history. His worst result still resulted in victory.

Blair gained power in '97 on a left wing platform.

The '97 manifesto was a left wing document which Blair later betrayed.

Rather than print off the whole manifesto, here is the summary as it appeared in that document. Barely left of centre and virtually no different to the 2005 effort.

Over the five years of a Labour government:
1 Education will be our number one priority, and we will increase the share of national income spent on education as we decrease it on the bills of economic and social failure
2 There will be no increase in the basic or top rates of income tax

3 We will provide stable economic growth with low inflation, and promote dynamic and competitive business and industry at home and abroad

4 We will get 250,000 young unemployed off benefit and into work

5 We will rebuild the NHS, reducing spending on administration and increasing spending on patient care

6 We will be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime, and halve the time it takes persistent juvenile offenders to come to court

7 We will help build strong families and strong communities, and lay the foundations of a modern welfare state in pensions and community care

8 We will safeguard our environment, and develop an integrated transport policy to fight congestion and pollution

9 We will clean up politics, decentralise political power throughout the United Kingdom and put the funding of political parties on a proper and accountable basis

10 We will give Britain the leadership in Europe which Britain and Europe need

If you ignore context and twist a few facts, you can come up with an argument which might fool some of the people. You aren't likely to command respect for political / historical analysis however.

 

[bring the ghost on]

Democracy owes a thank you to Labour in that by-election. The Tories were prepared to soft peddle in Stoke and allow UKIP to establish a presence in the midlands that could easily have seen them become a real force.

UKIP have lost their leader (probably their strongest asset), achieved their single-issue aim of securing Brexit and don't even a viable stance in opposing how Brexit is being handled because the Tories have adopted the same hard Brexit stance anyway.

I agree with you that it's great news to see UKIP in decline, but we don't have Labour to thank for it I'm afraid, UKIP is a spent force and this was always inevitable.

 

[dannyboy]

Unfortunately the last points are just about correct for right or for wrong. I agree infighting hasn't helped but a lot of the country is weary when it comes to Corbyn and his politics. To get power you have to be moderate and centric unless there is a wave of unrest consuming the country. Not saying that won't happen, but we are not there yet.

The media does play a big part in it and you could tell from the off that Corbyn's face didn't fit, despite outstanding principles. Let's hope someone out there can unite the party whose face does fit.

To me it's bloody annoying that we are just retreading old ground that was rejected in the eighties.

The biggest thing was the way Corbyn allowed himself to be depicted early on. Him and his team did nothing to address how he was being perceived. In fact, they probably even embraced it.

If we had an British Obama could he win an election on Corbyn's policies? I think he'd have a decent chance, sadly there isn't one waiting in the Labour Party right now so it doesn't matter whether the leader is from the left or the right of the party- I think they're absolutely toast.

 

[dannyboy]

Wait'll you see the Tories implode after the deal May will get from Europe.

2020 is a good way away and there'll be a downturn in the economy and things will rapidly change.

Labour need to continue to purge themselves of the Blairite detritus, and keep pressing on the NHS issue - almost to the exclusion of all other policies. No one trusts the Tories on the NHS and people are rightly bricking it they are destroying the service.

Can we start with Peter Mandelson? "There's not a day that goes by when I don't try to destablise Jeremy Corbyn." If he put half as much effort into fighting the Tories we'd be getting somewhere.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

which ones? and how?

I have made a claim it’s up to you disprove it. Im not really interested in regurgitated media judgment from some opinion piece that used to report and inform people. I have factual evidence at my finger tips as much as you. However, in the spirit of comradeship, there are 3 significant dates which the Conservative government has been defeated since being elected in 2015. Also in this time period there is lots of floated policy and poor decision making that has been brought to account by Labour and others, which has had to be back peddled on.

 

[The binman chronicles]

You have disagreed with the first bit and then ignored the rest.

Labour is in the state it is, and is led by the man that it is, because of the utter and repeated failure of the Progress / "progressive" / Blairite tendency. To remove Corbyn and put them back in charge - which is the only thing that will accept - wouldn't result in an improved electoral position (the papers might give them a pat on the back for getting rid of JC, but they have nothing to bribe the proprietors with any more), it wouldn't make them a more viable opposition (indeed they would oppose far less of what May is doing) or government (because of their general incompetence) and it would result in a massive collapse in the membership.

Yes the past shapes the present and obviously the split in the party between traditional and new is always going to cause ructions at various intervals. You can kind of understand it that the left thinks the other half have had their chance at the wheel and they want their turn now. You see that even now under Corbyn the other side are fighting to be heard behind the closed door, does that mean they will and should lurch to the centre next time no, but they need to compromise more and certainly not have an all left frontbench.

At the end of the day everyone is allowed his or her views on where the labour party is failing. Was it perfect in Blair's time? No. Did it lead to a fall in membership? Can't really argue that point. But then flip it, Has the opinion polls shown that Labour is moving in the right direction? Definitely not. Has Corbyn unified the party? No.

You can have an increased membership and a flourishing party at ground level (in certain areas/age groups), but if you are unelectable you are just a party of protest. It needs broader appeal especially seeing labour may be done in Scotland.

You are right without decent policies nothing changes, a strong united Labour should be fighting on a platform for the NHS and other services being careful not to alienate (and I hate this term) 'middle England'. I don't care who fronts that as long as they can show they can bring the party together and get the media onside.

Like it or not new labour showed it was electable, much of the problems are caused when strong leaders go and you are left with a vacuum of people without the same character and dynamism to be able to control what is always a split party.

Imo Corbyn still has to go, he is not going to be winning an election and is at best treading water.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

UKIP have lost their leader (probably their strongest asset), achieved their single-issue aim of securing Brexit and don't even a viable stance in opposing how Brexit is being handled because the Tories have adopted the same hard Brexit stance anyway.

I agree with you that it's great news to see UKIP in decline, but we don't have Labour to thank for it I'm afraid, UKIP is a spent force and this was always inevitable.

Time is running out for those UKiP MEPs, its going to be P45 time...

However, the the trouble with UKip is the similar pattern.

Nigel Farage (EX TORY).
Stuart Wheeler (EX TORY).
David Silvester (EX TORY).
Mark Reckless (EX TORY).
Douglas Carswell (EX TORY).
Amjad Bashir (WAS EX TORY NOW DEFECTED BACK TO TORIES).
Paul Richard Oakden (EX TORY).
Bill Etheridge (EX TORY).
Roger Helmer (EX TORY).
Janice Atkinson (EX TORY).
Neil Hamilton (EX TORY).
William Legge ( EX TORY).
Mike Taylor (EX TORY).
Jean Taylor (EX TORY).
Michael McCabe (EX TORY).
Peter Rodberg (EX TORY),
David Campbell.Bannerman (EX TORY).
David Meacock (EX TORY).
Michael Skeels (EX TORY).
Dawn Skeels (EX TORY).
Steve St Clair-Haslam (EX TORY).
Eric Munday (EX TORY).
Caroline Jones (EX TORY).
Chris Smart (EX TORY).
Suzanne Evans (EX TORY).
Richard Hilton (EX TORY).
Richard Barnes (EX TORY).
Paul Oakley (EX TORY).
Alexander Fermor.Hesketh (EX TORY).
Edward Board (EX TORY).
Ben Walker (EX TORY).
Ed Rose (EX TORY).
Will Davison (EX TORY).
Jim Tucker (EX TORY).
Chris Neal (EX TORY).
Mel Molyneux (EX TORY).
Chris Lagdon (EX TORY).
Ron ScrIvens (EX TORY).
Ian Molyneux (EX TORY).
Paul BeIlls (EX TORY).
Graham Dawson (EX TORY).
Lee Gilroy (EX TORY).
Karl Williamson (EX TORY).
David Sprason (EX TORY).
Michael Read (EX TORY).
Terry Goodman (EX TORY).
Edward Griffin (EX TORY).
Stuart Mutton (EX TORY).
Brian Silvaster (EX TORY).
Tim Aker (EX TORY).
Jacqui Baxter (EX TORY).
Caroline Dyos (EX TORY).
And Paul Nuttall (EX TORY).
first stood as a Tory back in 2002

 

[davek]

UKIP have lost their leader (probably their strongest asset), achieved their single-issue aim of securing Brexit and don't even a viable stance in opposing how Brexit is being handled because the Tories have adopted the same hard Brexit stance anyway.

I agree with you that it's great news to see UKIP in decline, but we don't have Labour to thank for it I'm afraid, UKIP is a spent force and this was always inevitable.

Not really. Their role now is to cause havoc in Labour's ranks by eating into Labour votes by appealing mostly to those left behind by globalism - those on short hours, the casualised workforce and the unwaged who blame competition from incomers for work opportunities and scarce local resources for their lot in life. That sort of grievance doesn't go away with Brexit. It makes it even hungrier for more concessions. But UKIP have suffered an almighty blow last night because, besides Nuttall's personal role in this defeat, they've exaggerated the hold they have on such people politically. Labour have to work hard to make themselves relevant to them again and UKiP are dead in the water north of Watford.

 

[davek]

Can we start with Peter Mandelson? "There's not a day that goes by when I don't try to destablise Jeremy Corbyn." If he put half as much effort into fighting the Tories we'd be getting somewhere.

I wonder what Tristan Hunt (the name FFS!) thinks today, given he jumped ship to put Corbyn right in it for the Tories and his own party's Blairites?

Gutted hopefully.

 

[dannyboy]

I wonder what Tristan Hunt (the name FFS!) thinks today, given he jumped ship to put Corbyn right in it for the Tories and his own party's Blairites?

Gutted hopefully.

Never a Labour MP, he'll probably vote Tory at the next election.