Current Affairs The Labour Party

[Aberblue]

I don't really agree with much of this, but it's a matter of conjecture I guess.

However, there is one thing I need to pick up on: "Corbyn's party delivered a stunning result in 2017"

A stunning result?

Losing to an extremely poor PM who run the worst campaign in modern electoral history?
Losing to a party who by that time had been in power for 7 years?
Losing to a party that gained their largest percentage vote share since Thatcher under a horrendous leader?
Losing to a party that was at war with itself over Brexit?

Maybe this attitude shows just how far the Labour party's standards have fallen. 1945 was a stunning result. 1997 was a stunning result. You know why? Because they won.

I suppose it was stunning in that they managed to lose to a Conservative Party led by an incompetent, over-promoted, uncharismatic leader, with a manifesto which seemed designed to alienate both their own supporters and floating voters.

 

[roydo]

Oh god, don't tell @peteblue!

He will think my 82p an hour carers allowance is value for money.

Actually, he would have a point. Saving social services/NHS about £10000 a week.

 

[Mrk]

I suppose it was stunning in that they managed to lose to a Conservative Party led by an incompetent, over-promoted, uncharismatic leader, with a manifesto which seemed designed to alienate both their own supporters and floating voters.

Well, exactly. But don't forget mate, they only lost because the working class are too thick to think for themselves - they believe everything they read in the Daily Mail, you see.

Apparently.

 

[Tubey]

Well, exactly. But don't forget mate, they only lost because the working class are too thick to think for themselves - they believe everything they read in the Daily Mail, you see.

Apparently.

That's the constant refrain - it's the media, it's the PLP, it's... everyone except themselves.

Always the victim, it's never their fault.

 

[Mrk]

That's the constant refrain - it's the media, it's the PLP, it's... everyone except themselves.

Always the victim, it's never their fault.

The working class have always been a disappointment to the left. I find the way some people speak about them as if they’re a homogeneous group of ignorant and uneducated plebs who believe everything they read in the Daily Mail genuinely repulsive.

“What’s that, you want to vote against the party I support? Don’t do that old boy, I know what’s best for you, just do as I say."

Patronising beyond words.

 

[Tubey]

The working class have always been a disappointment to the left. I find the way some people speak about them as if they’re a homogeneous group of ignorant and uneducated plebs who believe everything they read in the Daily Mail genuinely repulsive.

“What’s that, you want to vote against the party I support? Don’t do that old boy, I know what’s best for you, just do as I say."

Patronising beyond words.

It's the 'Islington Elite' mindset. Everyone should be in their box. Doing well for yourself is frowned upon. The proletariat should stay the proletariat at all times, but be comfortable. Nobody should be allowed to be 'super rich', but being well off is fine as long as you're 'one of us' in the first place.

In one way, it's an admirable goal, because it takes off the excesses in terms of the excessively rich and the excessively poor in society. That's what appeals to people - the 'Robin Hood' mentality of robbing the rich to feed the poor. However, if you just follow the logic to the end point of such a system, you begin to see what a dystopian nightmare it probably leads to. A societal segregation, where some are more equal than others. Business and enterprise is the enemy, so society as a whole flounders and we all race to the bottom, except - of course - for those who are more equal than others.

The far left is different to the far right in that, in general, its' advocates are genuinely pushing for a fairer society. The far right aren't - even if you take out the true far right (e.g. nazis) and just focus on the economical far right, they are looking for the opposite of fair; they want a society where people eat other people to climb the ladder, all who fall off that ladder are acceptable losses.

For me, there's a middle ground between the two, one where you can show restraint, cherry pick the best of all worlds. That, apparently, makes me a 'spineless centrist'. So be it. But I truly believe the vast majority of people in this country feel that way - they want what's best for their families, are happy at whatever creates a fairer world as long as it doesn't make their own world worse in the process. There's an inherent selfishness and aspiration in the average UK citizen, but also an inherent desire for degrees of equity.

The Tories, for much of modern society, have been closer to that viewpoint than Labour. When Labour have been closer, like in 1997, they've won elections easily. When they've been leftist idealogues, they get trounced.

 

[Mrk]

It's the 'Islington Elite' mindset. Everyone should be in their box. Doing well for yourself is frowned upon. The proletariat should stay the proletariat at all times, but be comfortable. Nobody should be allowed to be 'super rich', but being well off is fine as long as you're 'one of us' in the first place.

In one way, it's an admirable goal, because it takes off the excesses in terms of the excessively rich and the excessively poor in society. That's what appeals to people - the 'Robin Hood' mentality of robbing the rich to feed the poor. However, if you just follow the logic to the end point of such a system, you begin to see what a dystopian nightmare it probably leads to. A societal segregation, where some are more equal than others. Business and enterprise is the enemy, so society as a whole flounders and we all race to the bottom, except - of course - for those who are more equal than others.

The far left is different to the far right in that, in general, its' advocates are genuinely pushing for a fairer society. The far right aren't - even if you take out the true far right (e.g. nazis) and just focus on the economical far right, they are looking for the opposite of fair; they want a society where people eat other people to climb the ladder, all who fall off that ladder are acceptable losses.

For me, there's a middle ground between the two, one where you can show restraint, cherry pick the best of all worlds. That, apparently, makes me a 'spineless centrist'. So be it. But I truly believe the vast majority of people in this country feel that way - they want what's best for their families, are happy at whatever creates a fairer world as long as it doesn't make their own world worse in the process. There's an inherent selfishness and aspiration in the average UK citizen, but also an inherent desire for degrees of equity.

The Tories, for much of modern society, have been closer to that viewpoint than Labour. When Labour have been closer, like in 1997, they've won elections easily. When they've been leftist idealogues, they get trounced.

Couldn't agree more - there are ideas on both sides that have value. That's why the Tories are the most successful major political party in the world, because if they see a policy on the left that they like, they steal it and pretend it was their idea all along.

The obsession the left have with ideological purity is baffling - it doesn't help a single working class person.

 

[LEONARD]

The working class have always been a disappointment to the left. I find the way some people speak about them as if they’re a homogeneous group of ignorant and uneducated plebs who believe everything they read in the Daily Mail genuinely repulsive.

“What’s that, you want to vote against the party I support? Don’t do that old boy, I know what’s best for you, just do as I say."

Patronising beyond words.

For the far left, the British proletariat has failed in their 'historic' and 'predetermined' task of overthrowing capitalism.

They put this down, as you intimate, to 'false consciousness' , ie it's all the fault of the media , with their 'scaremongering' and 'brainwashing'

Middle class lefties just can't understand or accept that large sections of the British working class are patriotic, conservative (with with a small c) and reluctant to vote for supposed utopias.

 

[davek]

hahaha, okay then Dave, how about you go and speak to somebody who actually needs a Labour government right now - somebody who is having their benefits cut - and you tell them 2017 was a ‘stunning result’ and see the reaction you get.

I'd love to see it.

What we saw in 2017 was a bid for power which almost came off. If the LP right wing officers hadn't been sending resources to seats in the bag rather than marginals, the LP would have been in power. I think you need to ask those right wing scumbags in the LP who worked for a Tory victory to go and speak to the people who needed a Labour Government.

 

[Mrk]

For the far left, the British proletariat has failed in their 'historic' and 'predetermined' task of overthrowing capitalism.

They put this down, as you intimate, to 'false consciousness' , ie it's all the fault of the media , with their 'scaremongering' and 'brainwashing'

Middle class lefties just can't understand or accept that large sections of the British working class are patriotic, conservative (with with a small c) and reluctant to vote for supposed utopias.

Spot on. The far left have to reconcile themselves with the fact that it's not 1945 anymore. There aren't two competing economic systems - capitalism won the battle - whether that was right is up for debate, but the fact it won isn't.

 

[roydo]

For the far left, the British proletariat has failed in their 'historic' and 'predetermined' task of overthrowing capitalism.

They put this down, as you intimate, to 'false consciousness' , ie it's all the fault of the media , with their 'scaremongering' and 'brainwashing'

Middle class lefties just can't understand or accept that large sections of the British working class are patriotic, conservative (with with a small c) and reluctant to vote for supposed utopias.

The irony, as far as I can see, is that the academic professional political folk, have never actually been, "working class" themselves. Never properly worked most likely.

 

[roydo]

speak to the people who needed a Labour Government.

Like who?

 

[Mrk]

What we saw in 2017 was a bid for power which almost came off. If the LP right wing officers hadn't been sending resources to seats in the bag rather than marginals, the LP would have been in power. I think you need to ask those right wing scumbags in the LP who worked for a Tory victory to go and speak to the people who needed a Labour Government.

lol "A bid for power which almost came off" - What a stunning result, comrades! We nearly won against the worst PM in recent history!

Good lord.

 

[davek]

Like who?

Who needed a Labour Government carrying out the Corbyn era manifesto: workers, the unemployed, the homeless, the environment, the disabled, the sick...

 

[davek]

lol "A bid for power which almost came off" - What a stunning result, comrades! We nearly won against the worst PM in recent history!

Good lord.

There isn't a political commentator left or right who wouldn't describe the LPs comeback in 2017 as anything other than stunning.

And you ignore every explanation as to why that didn't transfer into power - massive interests inside and outside the LP working together to deny the victory.

Take a bow, you are preposterous.