lol
Bloody hell.
Yeah OK, sorry mate, Hitler sprung up 1 January 1940. My mistake.
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lol
Bloody hell.
Yeah OK, sorry mate, Hitler sprung up 1 January 1940. My mistake.
Not at all, but it is kind of important to acknowledge what decade the Holocaust occurred in when we are discussing anti-semitism isnt it?
The most destructive, racist and harrowing period of Nazi rule came in the 1940s. They literally tried to wipe out the entire Jewish race in that period. It's quite important to recognize this.
That mural is anti-semitic. I mean of course you can criticise both Israel and capitalism from a racist standpoint, but it's not the only reason to criticise either is it?
It is possible to point out some of the horrors of capitalism, and also be quiet clear that the picture above is both racist but also inaccurate isnt it?
The idea that all criticism of capitalism is anti-semitic seems is anti-semitic, as it assumes Jewish people control the media/capitalism, which like the moral above is racist.
No, I mean at this point I have absolutely no idea how you're getting any of that from what I said...
I said you can criticise capitalism and Israel without being anti-semitic. Easily so in fact. Criticism of Netanyahu being a complete monster isn't anti-semitic, for example, but it is anti-semitic if you say he's a monster because he's Jewish. Similarly, you can criticise Israel without denying its' fundamental right to exist - the annexations for example are abhorrent; it's not anti-semitic to say that. That's the difference.
That mural, by the way, had many people on the left defending it as not anti-semitic, which is part of the problem. Indeed...
The holocaust actually began in the 30s mate (1938 "Kristallnacht" for example; Jews killed, shops destroyed, thousands sent to concentration camps). The Nuremberg Laws were 1935. They didn't just randomly start persecuting Jews in the 40s.
You were challenging the idea earlier though that being anti-capitalism meant you weren't anti-semitic. If you are moving away from that premise that oen automatically equates to the other then we are in full agreement.
Yvonne Ridley, and Jeremy Corbyn are both wrong on this. He has made a nuber of dubious comments on anti-semitism. I've never been of the view that the left doesn't have people within it who are anti-semitic, but it's ower than the rest of society. I call it out when I encounter it though.
As I'e said here, you'd have to be a complete idiot to be anti-semitic and left wing. Orwell described it as the socialism of fools which I think covers it.
The persecution began in the 30's almost as soon as they were elected (and for some time before via their squads). The Holocaust, as a distinctive act as the "final solution" began in the 40's though.
No I wasn't? I said anti-semitism is a problem for the left because the root of it is in anti-capitalism. I'm not saying all anti-capitalists are anti-semitic; that would be stupid. I'm saying that there's a correlation between the two for a number of people.
I agree you'd be an idiot to be anti-semitic and left wing - but those idiots exists.
Indeed. Dachau opened in 1933.
My definition of the holocaust is basically 1933 to 1945 as Jews were immediately being killed by the Nazis. Others define it differently. My point is that it wasn't an exclusively 1940s thing so you calling me out as "wrong" on it was bizarre.
But most of the prominent anti-capitalists were either avowedly Pro Jewish or Jewish themselves. Lenin, Trotsky, Marx, Bukharin, Krupskaya, Luxemberg, Leibneckt, Kautsky, Plekhanov etc. The first and int ruth only anti-capitalist government was governed by a party who legalised Judaiesm and had a membership of over 50% of Jewish people at the turn of the century,
The Nazi's, and subsequent parties and regimes inspired by them associated Judaiesm with anti-capitalism/Bolshevism like they are interchangeable.
To me, being anti-capitalistis a very clear indicator that overall you are far less likely to be anti-semitic. Thats the only correlation that can and should be made, unless people want to reproduce the nonsense that "Jews control everything" which we both agree is completely untrue.
I don't think your definition is supported by anyone, least of all Jewish histiography. The Holocaust is meant viewed as the final solution.
I didn't ay you were wrong for mentioning the 1930's, but for failing to also acknwoledge the 40's. You were wrong, the Nazi's crimes were most horrific in the 40's. If you are going to challenge anti-semitism, you need to acknowledge what they did in the 40's really. That was my point. If you think thats bizarre, thas your call mate. To me acknwoledging what they did in the 40's seems the obvious thing to do.
All those people are of little relevance to those who are "left" but anti-semitic. They are anti-capitalist in the modern sense - they hate corporations, banks, the rich. They want redistribution of wealth. In 2020. 95% of them wouldn't have read a word of Marx.
You, as well read, logically can't see the stupidity of it, just like on the right a normal person can't understand Tommy Robinson. Which is great. But there's a sizeable amount of people out there who thing "Jews control everything" and that's the source of their anti-semitism; the hatred of them controlling everything because wealth should be redistributed and capitalism should be destroyed and replaced with socialism.
So we essentially agree, but I think you are coming at it from an educated theoretical position and I'm talking about the people who are literally the polar opposite of you. The term "educated racist" is a misnomer you see.
Well, just a quick Google...
Museum of Tolerance | Learn | Educator Resources | Timeline of the Holocaust
Explore the Timeline of the Holocaust, a comprehensive, chronological educator resource tracing key events from 1933 to 1945 for deeper historical insight.
www.museumoftolerance.com
Timeline - Holocaust Museum & Learning Center
Keep your Holocaust timeline straight. Check out a chronology of the major historical events of the Holocaust, spanning from 1933 through 1945.
hmlc.org
Well, just a quick Google...
Museum of Tolerance | Learn | Educator Resources | Timeline of the Holocaust
Explore the Timeline of the Holocaust, a comprehensive, chronological educator resource tracing key events from 1933 to 1945 for deeper historical insight.
Timeline - Holocaust Museum & Learning Center
Keep your Holocaust timeline straight. Check out a chronology of the major historical events of the Holocaust, spanning from 1933 through 1945.
I don't really want to do this mate but;
The Holocaust - Wikipedia
"Most Holocaust historians define the Holocaust as the genocide of the European Jews by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1941 and 1945."
Holocaust | Definition, Concentration Camps, History, & Facts | Britannica
The Holocaust was the systematic state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children and millions of others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II. Today the Holocaust is viewed as the emblematic manifestation of absolute evil.
www.britannica.com
- After 1941, following the invasion of the Soviet Union, Nazi death-squads, called 'einsatzgruppen', murdered more than a million Jewish people in eastern Europe.
- In 1942, a Nazi conference at Wannsee decided on the 'Final Solution' – the Jewish people were to be systematically taken to camps such as Auschwitz and gassed.
Most definitions view the Holocaust as from 1941-45. If you want an alternative understanding to include what happened in the 30's thats fair enough, but it's a minority viewpoint and more improtantly we shouldn't lose site of what happened in the 40's. This is important in distinguishing the horrors of anti-semitism to other oppressive regimes there have been.
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