Current Affairs The Labour Party

[evilwebby]

Anyone who think RLB is a commie isn’t in the middle ground. Anyone who thinks she’s lunatic hard left socialist nutcase isn’t the middle ground. And since when was this middle ground so fought over rather than actually standing for something?

Or were Labour going to lose the next election because people wouldn’t vote for them because 4 years earlier the shadow education secretary had retweeted an article by an actor?

Er... since we all figured out that is how you win elections instead of being cast as a bunch of hopeless activists. You must have policies that appeal to a wide cross section of society. That is how politics works.. not by adopting an extreme agenda that narrows your appeal.

 

[dead_soft]

Er... since we all figured out that is how you win elections instead of being cast as a bunch of hopeless activists. You must have policies that appeal to a wide cross section of society. That is how politics works.. not by adopting an extreme agenda that narrows your appeal.

The middle ground is how you win elections? How did Labour get within less than one million votes of Tories in 2017? How did parties that support Brexit do so well? How did Trump get in to power? This does t support the argument that the middle ground is where most of the electorate sit.
Black Lives Matter is now supported at least with lip service by all major political parties and the majority of the country. Is that now the middle ground? If so that suggests the middle ground is ever changing so should Labour aim for the current middle ground or where they think the middle ground will be by the time of the next élection?

This doesn’t seem to be as simple as you imagine it to be.

 

[Billy Dean]

Not being funny, but are Labour really squabbling over the anti-semetic content of that article? Can’t we see a bigger issue here?

The whole fvcking article is absolutely insanely bonkers from an obviously very bitter loony left. The problem is not anti-semitism here, the problem is that you have idiots on your front bench willing to openly endorse these openly communist views who say “anyone who didn’t vote Corbyn is a Tory.” Way to go, nice reaching out to the middle ground there.

Starmer is right to sack her... because she’s clearly a lunatic toxic hard left socialist nutcase.

I think Peake came across as a bit of a GCSE politics student in her interview and a shadow cabinet minister had no business endorsing it and should’ve known better.

 

[evilwebby]

The middle ground is how you win elections? How did Labour get within less than one million votes of Tories in 2017? How did parties that support Brexit do so well? How did Trump get in to power? This does t support the argument that the middle ground is where most of the electorate sit.
Black Lives Matter is now supported at least with lip service by all major political parties and the majority of the country. Is that now the middle ground? If so that suggests the middle ground is ever changing so should Labour aim for the current middle ground or where they think the middle ground will be by the time of the next élection?

This doesn’t seem to be as simple as you imagine it to be.

Last I checked, Labour still lost in 2017 despite being up against an incompetent incumbent who ran a disastrously bad campaign, and was afraid of a direct head to head debate, and burdened by a confusing and unpopular manifesto.

You are right in one sense that it's not as simple as I am making it out to be by just shifting your policies. You actually have to undergo transformation and believe it what you are saying.

A rather uncomfortable truth for Tory haters is that they have increased their share of the popular vote in every single election since their 1997 defeat. That is SIX successive elections that they have managed to increase their base of support across the country, and they manage to do this because ultimately they understand how to regenerate themselves to appeal to new generations of voters by both being shaped by and representing the sensible core of mainstream voters.

Labour, by contrast, always seem to be having the eternal debate about what their party stands for.

 

[dead_soft]

Last I checked, Labour still lost in 2017 despite being up against an incompetent incumbent who ran a disastrously bad campaign, and was afraid of a direct head to head debate, and burdened by a confusing and unpopular manifesto.

You are right in one sense that it's not as simple as I am making it out to be by just shifting your policies. You actually have to undergo transformation and believe it what you are saying.

A rather uncomfortable truth for Tory haters is that they have increased their share of the popular vote in every single election since their 1997 defeat. That is SIX successive elections that they have managed to increase their base of support across the country, and they manage to do this because ultimately they understand how to regenerate themselves to appeal to new generations of voters by both being shaped by and representing the sensible core of mainstream voters.

Labour, by contrast, always seem to be having the eternal debate about what their party stands for.

But the Tories haven’t been centre ground politics through that time. They have been Brexit and Hostile environment. Or is the argument that whatever the Tories say is centre ground? It does the LP and the country no good to change their policies just because some unspecified group of people in the middle ground want it.
I was never a huge backer of Corbyn and I certainly have no love for Momentum but this idea that Labour should move to the electorate’s middle ground just doesn’t hold up to me. Especially when people start calling them the sensible core.
It suggests that politics doesn’t move or can’t move people which is untrue. Labour should be spending five years educating about what their policies stand for, not five years asking the voters how to get in to power. As if that’s even a solution.

 

[evilwebby]

But the Tories haven’t been centre ground politics through that time. They have been Brexit and Hostile environment. Or is the argument that whatever the Tories say is centre ground? It does the LP and the country no good to change their policies just because some unspecified group of people in the middle ground want it.
I was never a huge backer of Corbyn and I certainly have no love for Momentum but this idea that Labour should move to the electorate’s middle ground just doesn’t hold up to me. Especially when people start calling them the sensible core.
It suggests that politics doesn’t move or can’t move people which is untrue. Labour should be spending five years educating about what their policies stand for, not five years asking the voters how to get in to power. As if that’s even a solution.

They are sensibly center-ground on almost all the major policy. On some policies they may tilt more toward the Right than others. Brexit the big one, but even here they are taking a pragmatic position and working with the EU to have a sensible trade policy in place instead of going the nuclear route. On other big issues, taxation, spending on public services, foreign policy they are sensibly progressive - so they will draw criticism from both extreme left and extreme right, but if that is the case then you know you have probably got it roughly correct.
Again, it comes back to the point of actually having policies you believe in rather than seek the middle ground as a power grab, but in this respect typical Tories are way ahead of typical Labour in that they are more pragmatic and know that am imperfect but workable position is better than an ideologically perfect one that has no chance at the election box.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Peake is a commy barmpot. Endorsing her showed RLB persuassion. Same with others who agree.

The centre is not hell bent on smashing capitalism. The centre are contributors to the capitalist system.

The centre are not obsessed by Palestine, they are rightly or wrongly concerned about matters that impact them - but that is not to say they are not generous and charitable.

The radical left are not representative of the UK.

 

[davek]

Peake is a commy barmpot. Endorsing her showed RLB persuassion. Same with others who agree.

The centre is not hell bent on smashing capitalism. The centre are contributors to the capitalist system.

The centre are not obsessed by Palestine, they are rightly or wrongly concerned about matters that impact them - but that is not to say they are not generous and charitable.

The radical left are not representative of the UK.

I pictured this outburst like this....

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

I pictured this outburst like this....

Its true though Dave

Possibly to both

 

[tsubaki]

Er... since we all figured out that is how you win elections instead of being cast as a bunch of hopeless activists. You must have policies that appeal to a wide cross section of society. That is how politics works.. not by adopting an extreme agenda that narrows your appeal.

The key problem with this though is the “cast as a bunch of hopeless activists bit”.

Who does the casting? Do you think they’ll give Labour a fairer hearing when they become more likely to win an election?

 

[dead_soft]

They are sensibly center-ground on almost all the major policy. On some policies they may tilt more toward the Right than others. Brexit the big one, but even here they are taking a pragmatic position and working with the EU to have a sensible trade policy in place instead of going the nuclear route. On other big issues, taxation, spending on public services, foreign policy they are sensibly progressive - so they will draw criticism from both extreme left and extreme right, but if that is the case then you know you have probably got it roughly correct.
Again, it comes back to the point of actually having policies you believe in rather than seek the middle ground as a power grab, but in this respect typical Tories are way ahead of typical Labour in that they are more pragmatic and know that am imperfect but workable position is better than an ideologically perfect one that has no chance at the election box.

What is the centre-ground on almost all the major policy and why is it so good? What is sensibly progressive? What about voting for the Tories suggests a progressive view of taxation?

You say it's having policies you actually believe in but think Labour should change what they believe in to be middle ground? You have made lots of assumptions but not really shown any evidence for them.

 

[Brennan]

I do wish people would stop positioning Brexit as a solely right wing desire.

There may be a significant number of right wing MPs who vote Brexit but the issue is not a right wing one in the eyes of the electorate, hence why millions of Corbyn voters also voted to leave the EU and the man himself has been ambivalent towards it for years.

 

[AsiaAsia82]

Politics is just a popularity contest, I would suggest a minority of voters actually read manifestos.
People either vote the same no matter what or pick the leader who seems to be more interesting.
Corbyn would never win a general election.
Starmer has the appearance of a Tory undercover,
Labour need a young leader, known to the younger generations.
Policy and self righteousness never wins anything, time we faced up to this if we want a fairer government.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

I do wish people would stop positioning Brexit as a solely right wing desire.

There may be a significant number of right wing MPs who vote Brexit but the issue is not a right wing one in the eyes of the electorate, hence why millions of Corbyn voters also voted to leave the EU and the man himself has been ambivalent towards it for years.

By far it is a right wing middle class agenda. Sure there are some in the left that see freedom of movement as a method suppressing wages. I'm firmly of the basic premise that everything was just dandy, when Pec the pole could stick up an extension or Roberts man cave at half the price of kev the builder just starting out. What the Roberts of this country did not bargain on, was Pec the pole settling and begin to economically and socially pressure the Roberts of the UK and his comfy life...Banking crisis bore this pattern of the various social mobility out much quicker, they got away with it the financial institutions, nothing like a red herring...

 

[davek]

Lisa Nandy urges ban on imports of West Bank goods

Labour leads calls for sanctions on Israel if it presses ahead with annexation plans

www.theguardian.com

I can gauarntee that if the Corbyn led LP would have called for the boycott of goods from occupied land in Israel/Palestine the whole media would be screaming anti-semitism.


This is one to keep an eye on. The Israeli apartheid government are going to annexe more Palestinian land in the West Bank this week with Trump's blessing. I want to see a clear stance taken on that by Labour.