Current Affairs The Labour Party

[Spadge Vernacular]

Where are we getting this "it's the worst Tory team in living memory". It's a highly competent team, that won millions of votes. They have successfully engineered Brexit. This sort of arrogance is astounding. They are a very competent electoral machine.

The fact is, the worst Tory admins run from Major through to Howard. That is the period they were at their weakest. We should have buried them then and didn't.

Don't agree, mate. I'd suggest that the sort of arrogance that ignores just how bad Corbyns team were is the issue. Cummings did assist with some clever targeting of the back of the Brexit campaign but the feedback from the doorstep was all to often about Corbyn and no confidence in his team. He manged to lose against a widely derided Maybot who actually looked stateswoman like when compared to blustering Boris. You may have faith in the likes of Raab, Hancock, Pritel and co as examples of the competent faces of this Tory team but I do not. The reality is that Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott and co were a huge part of our problem.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

If you've read the recent internal party report, how on earth can you say it was Momentum that caused massive splits in the LP when it was, in fact, the right wing of the party determined to reimpose Blairism?

The centre left (right to you) is the traditional party.

 

[Methuselah]

That isn’t being honest.

Momentum didn’t exist before Corbyn won, though it did emerge from the people involved in that campaign. Almost everyone in it was already in the LP and they wanted the party to do better than it had been doing - something which has been achieved.

Eh? So the 'achievement' was that Labour had the worst election results in history, or was it only second worst?

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

That isn’t being honest.

Momentum didn’t exist before Corbyn won, though it did emerge from the people involved in that campaign. Almost everyone in it was already in the LP and they wanted the party to do better than it had been doing - something which has been achieved.

Momentum grew out of and as a part of the Corbyn campaign. The hard left Trotskyist entrysts wanted to force the party to the hard left, as they have sought to do ad infinitum. Then Corbyn appoints Communist Murray and Stalinist, Seumas Milne. These aren't Labour people, a hand picked team of far left radicals.

 

[tsubaki]

Eh? So the 'achievement' was that Labour had the worst election results in history, or was it only second worst?

Look at the number of people voting Labour, and the number of people in the party. Both went up considerably under Corbyn - even in 2019 he got more votes than Blair did winning in 2005.

That they got hammered in 2019 in terms of seats won was down to how our elections are carried out; when Brown lost in 2010 he got nearly 1.6 million fewer votes but won 60 more seats.

 

[tsubaki]

Momentum grew out of and as a part of the Corbyn campaign. The hard left Trotskyist entrysts wanted to force the party to the hard left, as they have sought to do ad infinitum. Then Corbyn appoints Communist Murray and Stalinist, Seumas Milne. These aren't Labour people, a hand picked team of far left radicals.

How can entryists “force the party hard left as they’ve tried to do ad infinitum” - they would have to be in the party for its entire existence to have done that.

You don’t seem very Labour to me.

 

[dead_soft]

Momentum grew out of and as a part of the Corbyn campaign. The hard left Trotskyist entrysts wanted to force the party to the hard left, as they have sought to do ad infinitum. Then Corbyn appoints Communist Murray and Stalinist, Seumas Milne. These aren't Labour people, a hand picked team of far left radicals.

It's an untruth to suggest Milne and Murray aren't Labour people

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

How can entryists “force the party hard left as they’ve tried to do ad infinitum” - they would have to be in the party for its entire existence to have done that.

You don’t seem very Labour to me.

I was could say the same thing about you.

They have historically tried and been pushed out going back to the early part of the last century because they know that their hard left parties have ZERO chance of success in the UK - this they try to infiltrate Labour and move it to their point on the spectrum.

If you were a Labour man you'd know this, its not a secret.

 

[catcherintherye]

Don't agree, mate. I'd suggest that the sort of arrogance that ignores just how bad Corbyns team were is the issue. Cummings did assist with some clever targeting of the back of the Brexit campaign but the feedback from the doorstep was all to often about Corbyn and no confidence in his team. He manged to lose against a widely derided Maybot who actually looked stateswoman like when compared to blustering Boris. You may have faith in the likes of Raab, Hancock, Pritel and co as examples of the competent faces of this Tory team but I do not. The reality is that Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott and co were a huge part of our problem.

I agree that Corbyns team were not up to scratch. Down to his advisors etc. No disagreement there.

I'd also add, I think the Tory front bench is useless. I am bias though, I have always thought that all Tories were useless.

Objectively though, I use the measurement of number of votes won as the measuring stick of their ability, not by perceptions. In the real world, my opinion is irrelevant, what matters is what the public thinks.

They have just win 13+m votes. They also won 17m votes when faced with the collective might of all of Labour, sections of their own party and the Lib Dems. These are clearly very competent people in the eyes of the public.

The low point for the Tories in terms of how they were viewed was really from the 90s through the 00s. Major, Howard, Duncan Smith & Hague were all very poor leaders and their organisation was far more discredited. That was Labours moment to drive them into the ground, and we blew it.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

How can entryists “force the party hard left as they’ve tried to do ad infinitum” - they would have to be in the party for its entire existence to have done that.

You don’t seem very Labour to me.

I was could say the same thing about you.

They have historically tried and been pushed out going back to the early part of the last century because they know that their hard left parties have ZERO chance of success in the UK - this they try to infiltrate Labour and move it to their point on the spectrum.

If you were a Labour man you'd know this, its not a secret.

Actually, I apologise for allowing you to pull me down to Momentum levels of accusation about affiliation, sorry.

 

[peteblue]

 

[tsubaki]

I was could say the same thing about you.

They have historically tried and been pushed out going back to the early part of the last century because they know that their hard left parties have ZERO chance of success in the UK - this they try to infiltrate Labour and move it to their point on the spectrum.

If you were a Labour man you'd know this, its not a secret.

They aren’t hard left, though. Nationalisation was Labour policy for decades. Free tertiary education was Labour policy for decades. Corbyn and the people around him represent a strand within Labour that’s existed since the party was set up.

Claiming that strand is illegitimate and foreign to the party is bilge.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

I agree that Corbyns team were not up to scratch. Down to his advisors etc. No disagreement there.

I'd also add, I think the Tory front bench is useless. I am bias though, I have always thought that all Tories were useless.

Objectively though, I use the measurement of number of votes won as the measuring stick of their ability, not by perceptions. In the real world, my opinion is irrelevant, what matters is what the public thinks.

They have just win 13+m votes. They also won 17m votes when faced with the collective might of all of Labour, sections of their own party and the Lib Dems. These are clearly very competent people in the eyes of the public.

The low point for the Tories in terms of how they were viewed was really from the 90s through the 00s. Major, Howard, Duncan Smith & Hague were all very poor leaders and their organisation was far more discredited. That was Labours moment to drive them into the ground, and we blew it.

You'd put May and Boris above those you mentioned? Admittedly, its not exactly a beauty parade but personally I have been dismayed at how appalling those two have been and how we have not managed to capitalise upon this. That said we are living in a world that has the President of the United States offering creative medical advise so what do I know

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

They aren’t hard left, though. Nationalisation was Labour policy for decades. Free tertiary education was Labour policy for decades. Corbyn and the people around him represent a strand within Labour that’s existed since the party was set up.

Claiming that strand is illegitimate and foreign to the party is bilge.

A communist is not hard left?

 

[tsubaki]

A communist is not hard left?

What communist proposals did Corbyn’s Labour make?