Current Affairs The Labour Party

[Tea_drinker]

Some facts on what he had and hasn’t done would be good

It's all common knowledge and having various members of your team being arrested is not a good look either.
Take a trip to Manchester and see how a city in positive development looks.

 

[dead_soft]

It's all common knowledge and having various members of your team being arrested is not a good look either.
Take a trip to Manchester and see how a city in positive development looks.

I know both cities very well and I wouldn’t class Manchester as the beacon many suggest it is. But also, something other than hearsay about him?

 

[Tea_drinker]

I know both cities very well and I wouldn’t class Manchester as the beacon many suggest it is. But also, something other than hearsay about him?

A few ideas:
The city centre has been taken over by students and property investors making money from students none of whom pay any council tax.
There is no direct transport link from town to the airport.
Failed developments all over the place.
Failed to get the commonwealth games.
Failed to get channel 4.
Appears in local press only when he is directly and personally affected by something.
Embarrasses himself and the city on social media.
High profile members of his council team being arrested.
His using tax payers money and council legal team for a private legal case.
Strange goings on regarding planning permission for the roof extension on the shankly hotel.

Putting political and football allegiances aside, I don't see any evidence of him having any business savvy.

 

[evilwebby]

Mogg nails it, as he so commonly does. In order to win, The Labour Party and its next leader needs to first understand its opponent, the Conservatives, and the inherent appeal of conservatism: the freedom and ability to shape your own life rather than have it managed for you.

 

[peteblue]

I see that Jess woman is both for campaigning to rejoin the EU and also respecting the vote of the referendum, this will go well......

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I see that Jess woman is both for campaigning to rejoin the EU and also respecting the vote of the referendum, this will go well......

Pete, your use of "that <insert name> woman" comes across incredibly chauvinistically. Everyone is well aware of her gender, it doesn't need to be pejoratively pointed out whenever you reference her (or other women in politics).

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Mogg nails it, as he so commonly does. In order to win, The Labour Party and its next leader needs to first understand its opponent, the Conservatives, and the inherent appeal of conservatism: the freedom and ability to shape your own life rather than have it managed for you.

Where is your evidence that socially conservative former Labour voters hold this mindset rather than, as most social conservatives do, wishing to protect what they perceive to be the British way of life?

Oh, and frankly, his assertion that the Tories are sound managers is utterly laughable. I know he nearly fell asleep in the Commons, but it's like he's been asleep through the last decade.

 

[evilwebby]

Where is your evidence that socially conservative former Labour voters hold this mindset rather than, as most social conservatives do, wishing to protect what they perceive to be the British way of life?

Oh, and frankly, his assertion that the Tories are sound managers is utterly laughable. I know he nearly fell asleep in the Commons, but it's like he's been asleep through the last decade.

election results are a pretty good clue.

And the Tories have nearly always been perceived as sound managers on the most important battleground; the economy. One of the reasons why Labour was able to win in 1997 so convincingly was that the Tories lost this advantage after the black Wednesday debacle.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

election results are a pretty good clue.

And the Tories have nearly always been perceived as sound managers on the most important battleground; the economy. One of the reasons why Labour was able to win in 1997 so convincingly was that the Tories lost this advantage after the black Wednesday debacle.

Election results are a pretty crude measure, especially as growth has coincided less with the libertarian ideals you support being lauded by Johnson et al and more with intense social conservatism. It's a bit like Pete's belief in Brexit resulting in a Singapore upon Thames. Does he really believe people in Derby and Wigan want Brexit for that?

Re your second point, I don't doubt that's the perception. I doubt that it's been the reality, and find it incredulous that anyone who has sat through the post-referendum environment can even claim with a straight face that they're the party of competence.

 

[peteblue]

Pete, your use of "that <insert name> woman" comes across incredibly chauvinistically. Everyone is well aware of her gender, it doesn't need to be pejoratively pointed out whenever you reference her (or other women in politics).

I’d just forgotten her name, that‘s all. I could just as easily have said “that Keir fellow”......no offence intended.....

 

[evilwebby]

Election results are a pretty crude measure, especially as growth has coincided less with the libertarian ideals you support being lauded by Johnson et al and more with intense social conservatism. It's a bit like Pete's belief in Brexit resulting in a Singapore upon Thames. Does he really believe people in Derby and Wigan want Brexit for that?

Re your second point, I don't doubt that's the perception. I doubt that it's been the reality, and find it incredulous that anyone who has sat through the post-referendum environment can even claim with a straight face that they're the party of competence.

I'm not quite sure we're debating the same thing..?

I'm merely saying that understanding the "conservatism" is a pretty good starting point if you want to win over people who have voted Conservative in recent elections.

The Left are keen to portray the Cons as being a party for the rich and self-serving, and I believe that a large section of them think that's all it comes down to. The Right's greed vs the Left's compassion. But the Conservative party is far, far more than just that. It's a party for those who aspire to something better than they already are. This runs deep to the very essence of what it means to be conservative. To conserve = to save, protect & reuse the best aspects of a system that has served its people well. You recognise the value and wisdom of the past, not try to deny or rewrite it.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I'm not quite sure we're debating the same thing..?

I'm merely saying that understanding the "conservatism" is a pretty good starting point if you want to win over people who have voted Conservative in recent elections.

The Left are keen to portray the Cons as being a party for the rich and self-serving, and I believe that a large section of them think that's all it comes down to. The Right's greed vs the Left's compassion. But the Conservative party is far, far more than just that. It's a party for those who aspire to something better than they already are. This runs deep to the very essence of what it means to be conservative. To conserve = to save, protect & reuse the best aspects of a system that has served its people well. You recognise the value and wisdom of the past, not try to deny or rewrite it.

That's precisely what I'm disagreeing with, as I don't believe many of the 'new' Tory supporters are doing that at all. They are socially conservative, and want to return Britain to some mythical past when there were fewer migrants, criminals were treated 'properly', and women knew their place. In this election, at least, I suspect many of those former Labour voters switched to the Tories because they saw this as a chance to leave the EU, who they believe promote many of the multicultural, liberal values they so despise.

 

[PSB1]

That's precisely what I'm disagreeing with, as I don't believe many of the 'new' Tory supporters are doing that at all. They are socially conservative, and want to return Britain to some mythical past when there were fewer migrants, criminals were treated 'properly', and women knew their place. In this election, at least, I suspect many of those former Labour voters switched to the Tories because they saw this as a chance to leave the EU, who they believe promote many of the multicultural, liberal values they so despise.

There's a mountain of data to support your main contention. Not a huge amount suggesting they're not especially bothered about 'improving' their or their families' prospects.

 

[evilwebby]

That's precisely what I'm disagreeing with, as I don't believe many of the 'new' Tory supporters are doing that at all. They are socially conservative, and want to return Britain to some mythical past when there were fewer migrants, criminals were treated 'properly', and women knew their place. In this election, at least, I suspect many of those former Labour voters switched to the Tories because they saw this as a chance to leave the EU, who they believe promote many of the multicultural, liberal values they so despise.

Arrghh.. that's wasn't the point at all. Stop paint all leavers as simple minded Little Englanders.

Yes, they wanted to leave the EU, but not because the are fundamentally racist and dislike Europeans. They believe that the country is better off deciding its own future and managing its own affairs rather than have them dictated from Brussels. A belief that people are the best placed to run their own lives with as little State in the way as possible.. is a fundamentally conservative belief. Johnson managed to tap into that "natural conservatism" which just about everybody has an element of.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Arrghh.. that's wasn't the point at all. Stop paint all leavers as simple minded Little Englanders.

Yes, they wanted to leave the EU, but not because the are fundamentally racist and dislike Europeans. They believe that the country is better off deciding its own future and managing its own affairs rather than have them dictated from Brussels. A belief that people are the best placed to run their own lives with as little State in the way as possible.. is a fundamentally conservative belief. Johnson managed to tap into that "natural conservatism" which just about everybody has an element of.

I get that you believe that, but I fail to see any evidence that the new Tory voters do.

After all, it's hard to imagine the abolition of free movement fits into either your desire for people to be free to better their lives or to have less state involvement in it.