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...Corbyn reminds me of Bilyaletdinov. A soft, sluggish left winger with connections to Russia.
In defence of Jeremy Corbyn...

Here's something I just found which asserts that the negative impression that many have of him derives largely from the way he is treated by the press. I agree with almost all of it.

The article, first published last December, appeared in The London Economic, which is knew to me, and is by Robert Owens, of whom I know nothing.
Worth a read - for those with the time...
Please do say where you see errors in the argument. [Gaps might include dealing with antisemitism and lack of experience in Government ]


"Think Corbyn is a 'danger to Britain'? Here's how you've been brainwashed

If you still think Jeremy Corbyn is a ‘danger’ to Britain, a ‘traitor’, or just a total clown, it could be too late for you – you’ve been brainwashed by a handful of foreign billionaires.
That’s what I wrote more than two years ago in an article about the continual smearing of Jeremy Corbyn in the press. It turns out things haven’t got better; it’s worse than we imagined.
At the time, the article pointed out that whilst newspapers play a crucial role in British democracy, it is troubling that the majority (around 80 per cent) of the UK press is owned by a handful of (predominantly foreign) right-wing billionaires.
Last week The London Economic revealed an even more sinister picture, with revelations that around £2 million public money was funnelled to a charity in Scotland which posted disparaging stories against Jeremy Corbyn and other Labour figures.
It should be extremely disturbing to everyone that a ruling Government is using Public funds and official resources for party political purposes. This is the sort of thing we’re told happens in rogue states and banana republics, not here in Great Blighty.
In addition to this, The London Economic today reported news that one of Britain’s leading barristers has claimed he has evidence of BBC bias against Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn. Jolyon Maugham QC, director of the Good Law Project alleges that the BBC has indulged in showing “coded negative imagery” of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn since his election in 2015.
Make up your own mind
The Conservative Party is in chaos. Whilst the ruling party’s mismanagement and in-fighting is creating one constitutional crisis after another, poverty is increasing, services are failing, and debt is rising. But with such a weak and incompetent Government in power, why are there those still those supporting it?
Here’s why…
They’ve already told you what to think on a multitude of issues. You think you made up your own mind, and you think you’re right. But, you didn’t, and you aren’t.
How do I know this? Because blind policy based voting results (whereby voters tick the policies they agree with, without knowing which party they were voting for overall) are always radically different to the actual vote result when it comes to general elections and other major political votes.
Had all votes in previous elections been cast on policy pledges alone, studies suggest the Green Party and Liberal Democrats would have both had a turn at power by now.
What this means is that people generally have a different perspective when presented with policy pledges, yet vote in a completely different direction. Why? Because these chaps’ media outlets are bombarding your brain with high level right-wing propaganda:
Lord Rothermere, a billionaire living in France, owns the Mail, Mail on Sunday, and the Metro.
Rupert Murdoch, a billionaire US citizen, owns the Sun, Sun on Sunday and is the man behind Fox News, BSkyB, News Corp, etc, etc.
Alexander and Evgeny (son) Lebedev, an Ex KGB Russian Billionaire, owns The Independent, Independent on Sunday, The Evening Standard.
Richard Desmond, a billionaire, did own the Daily Star, Sunday Star, Daily Express, Sunday Express. Now owned by Reach (previously known as Trinity Mirror).
David and Frederick Barclay, billionaire brothers living on a private island near Saark, own the Telegraph, The Spectator, and the Business.
The Sun, for example, claim to have backed the winner of each general election since the notorious Sun headline, ‘It’s The Sun Wot Won It’ referring to the 1992 John Major Tory victory.
The tabloid had led an increasingly personal campaign against the then Labour leader Neil Kinnock, culminating in the famous election day headline: “If Kinnock wins today will the last person to leave Britain please turn out the lights.”
The same campaign is running against Jeremy Corbyn right here, right now.
Is Corbyn the man of integrity we hear about from his constituents, or the national traitor that we hear about in the press?
Think Corbyn is an unelectable loser? Apart from what you’ve read in your daily newspaper, how much do you really know about him?
Corbyn is a phenomenally hard working MP who passionately fights to protect the poor and vulnerable, seeks to protect the NHS, wants to nationalise natural monopolies and take back publicly financed utilities that were sold off to investors at a pittance, aims to stem the flow of capital from the poor to the rich, and campaigns tirelessly to seek diplomacy over war.
However, what is perhaps most threatening of all to the overseas billionaires is that Corbyn wants to stop corporate tax breaks, close down overseas tax avoidance, and stamp out wage inequality. This makes him hugely unpopular with the wealthy elite.
OK, maybe you do know a bit about Corbyn, but still dismiss his credentials out of hand. Sadly, it may be too late for you. The handful of right-wing media moguls running the bulk of the UK press have planted a seed, the roots of which have now grown deep within your subconscious, telling you that Corbyn is ‘dangerous for Britain’, just like Kinnock was.
Of course Corbyn isn’t perfect, I for one have my own reservations (his impotence over the EU referendum has deeply disappointed), but all I ask is that you look past the newspaper and media smear – some of which has been funded using taxpayer’s money. Our national newspapers are full of stories ridiculing Corbyn, smearing him, or even worse, not featuring him at all.
Socialism is a bad word… but the UK invented it (NHS, public services, National Insurance, etc)
Why does Corbyn get such bad press? Because he represents the biggest threat to the right wing ideology and stability of the super rich – the same people who own our national media.
One of the best tricks of the press is convincing people that a Corbyn Government would result in Britain becoming some sort of Communist State (like failing Venezuela), which of course is utter rubbish.
A little less neo-capitalism (i.e. clamp down on those extorting us) and a little more socialism (i.e. sort out the NHS and our public transport), is all that most people ask. Yet, the national press has brainwashed the public that ‘socialism is bad’.
In case you didn’t know, we don’t need to be one way or the other – we can find the right balance – which we certainly don’t have at the moment with a Tory Government that is actively closing hospitals and reducing our police force amid a rising population. It doesn’t make sense.
You may not agree with all or any of Corbyn’s policies, but it should trouble you that newspapers exercise power and influence in a number of ways. It is not just that they have a giant megaphone letting them dominate the public debate/thought. They have privileged access to politicians (just check out Rupert Murdoch’s wedding guest list) and have the ability to effectively set the political agenda.
However, none of the newspapers have privileged access to Jeremy Corbyn. Love him or loathe him, he’s the modern equivalent to the un-bribable Chicago cops who took down Al Capone. An untouchable politician. But, what use is a left leaning politician to a right-wing media mogul billionaire if he won’t even get into bed with him?
Think about this…
A perfect example of how the right-wing press paints a dire picture of Corbyn was reflected in news rooms when the Labour leader turned down tickets to the opening game of the Rugby World Cup in 2015. The press slaughtered him. As did a number of high profile MPs.
The press claimed he had ‘snubbed’ the invite to the opening ceremony. Boris Jonhson was quoted saying “This is turning into a national joke…Come on Jezza: Scrum down for England.”
What wasn’t widely reported was that Corbyn had prior commitments, ‘scrumming down’ to meet with his constituents, the people he was elected to represent and serve.
He sat down for a private meeting with one of his homeless constituents to listen to her issues, as well as a full to the brim waiting room of others who had turned up to his weekly constituency meeting.
Whilst other politicians were quaffing down the free hospitality in the premier VIP seats, Corbyn was doing what the public elected him, and pay him to do.
Make up your own mind
The public has been crying out for a politician who isn’t part of the Bullingdon Club or Etonian alumni elite. Someone who stands up for their principles and isn’t a media lap dog. But, it seems those very characteristics could be Corbyn’s undoing unless the public take a closer look and shake off the propaganda shackles.
I’m not here to tell you which way you vote, just to acknowledge the media we digest on a daily basis. Remember to ask yourself the question; Have I really made up my own mind?
Article by guest contributor Robert Owens."
thelondoneconomic.com
 
In defence of Jeremy Corbyn...

Here's something I just found which asserts that the negative impression that many have of him derives largely from the way he is treated by the press. I agree with almost all of it.

The article, first published last December, appeared in The London Economic, which is knew to me, and is by Robert Owens, of whom I know nothing.
Worth a read - for those with the time...
Please do say where you see errors in the argument. [Gaps might include dealing with antisemitism and lack of experience in Government ]


"Think Corbyn is a 'danger to Britain'? Here's how you've been brainwashed

If you still think Jeremy Corbyn is a ‘danger’ to Britain, a ‘traitor’, or just a total clown, it could be too late for you – you’ve been brainwashed by a handful of foreign billionaires.
That’s what I wrote more than two years ago in an article about the continual smearing of Jeremy Corbyn in the press. It turns out things haven’t got better; it’s worse than we imagined.
At the time, the article pointed out that whilst newspapers play a crucial role in British democracy, it is troubling that the majority (around 80 per cent) of the UK press is owned by a handful of (predominantly foreign) right-wing billionaires.
Last week The London Economic revealed an even more sinister picture, with revelations that around £2 million public money was funnelled to a charity in Scotland which posted disparaging stories against Jeremy Corbyn and other Labour figures.
It should be extremely disturbing to everyone that a ruling Government is using Public funds and official resources for party political purposes. This is the sort of thing we’re told happens in rogue states and banana republics, not here in Great Blighty.
In addition to this, The London Economic today reported news that one of Britain’s leading barristers has claimed he has evidence of BBC bias against Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn. Jolyon Maugham QC, director of the Good Law Project alleges that the BBC has indulged in showing “coded negative imagery” of Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn since his election in 2015.
Make up your own mind
The Conservative Party is in chaos. Whilst the ruling party’s mismanagement and in-fighting is creating one constitutional crisis after another, poverty is increasing, services are failing, and debt is rising. But with such a weak and incompetent Government in power, why are there those still those supporting it?
Here’s why…
They’ve already told you what to think on a multitude of issues. You think you made up your own mind, and you think you’re right. But, you didn’t, and you aren’t.
How do I know this? Because blind policy based voting results (whereby voters tick the policies they agree with, without knowing which party they were voting for overall) are always radically different to the actual vote result when it comes to general elections and other major political votes.
Had all votes in previous elections been cast on policy pledges alone, studies suggest the Green Party and Liberal Democrats would have both had a turn at power by now.
What this means is that people generally have a different perspective when presented with policy pledges, yet vote in a completely different direction. Why? Because these chaps’ media outlets are bombarding your brain with high level right-wing propaganda:
Lord Rothermere, a billionaire living in France, owns the Mail, Mail on Sunday, and the Metro.
Rupert Murdoch, a billionaire US citizen, owns the Sun, Sun on Sunday and is the man behind Fox News, BSkyB, News Corp, etc, etc.
Alexander and Evgeny (son) Lebedev, an Ex KGB Russian Billionaire, owns The Independent, Independent on Sunday, The Evening Standard.
Richard Desmond, a billionaire, did own the Daily Star, Sunday Star, Daily Express, Sunday Express. Now owned by Reach (previously known as Trinity Mirror).
David and Frederick Barclay, billionaire brothers living on a private island near Saark, own the Telegraph, The Spectator, and the Business.
The Sun, for example, claim to have backed the winner of each general election since the notorious Sun headline, ‘It’s The Sun Wot Won It’ referring to the 1992 John Major Tory victory.
The tabloid had led an increasingly personal campaign against the then Labour leader Neil Kinnock, culminating in the famous election day headline: “If Kinnock wins today will the last person to leave Britain please turn out the lights.”
The same campaign is running against Jeremy Corbyn right here, right now.
Is Corbyn the man of integrity we hear about from his constituents, or the national traitor that we hear about in the press?
Think Corbyn is an unelectable loser? Apart from what you’ve read in your daily newspaper, how much do you really know about him?
Corbyn is a phenomenally hard working MP who passionately fights to protect the poor and vulnerable, seeks to protect the NHS, wants to nationalise natural monopolies and take back publicly financed utilities that were sold off to investors at a pittance, aims to stem the flow of capital from the poor to the rich, and campaigns tirelessly to seek diplomacy over war.
However, what is perhaps most threatening of all to the overseas billionaires is that Corbyn wants to stop corporate tax breaks, close down overseas tax avoidance, and stamp out wage inequality. This makes him hugely unpopular with the wealthy elite.
OK, maybe you do know a bit about Corbyn, but still dismiss his credentials out of hand. Sadly, it may be too late for you. The handful of right-wing media moguls running the bulk of the UK press have planted a seed, the roots of which have now grown deep within your subconscious, telling you that Corbyn is ‘dangerous for Britain’, just like Kinnock was.
Of course Corbyn isn’t perfect, I for one have my own reservations (his impotence over the EU referendum has deeply disappointed), but all I ask is that you look past the newspaper and media smear – some of which has been funded using taxpayer’s money. Our national newspapers are full of stories ridiculing Corbyn, smearing him, or even worse, not featuring him at all.
Socialism is a bad word… but the UK invented it (NHS, public services, National Insurance, etc)
Why does Corbyn get such bad press? Because he represents the biggest threat to the right wing ideology and stability of the super rich – the same people who own our national media.
One of the best tricks of the press is convincing people that a Corbyn Government would result in Britain becoming some sort of Communist State (like failing Venezuela), which of course is utter rubbish.
A little less neo-capitalism (i.e. clamp down on those extorting us) and a little more socialism (i.e. sort out the NHS and our public transport), is all that most people ask. Yet, the national press has brainwashed the public that ‘socialism is bad’.
In case you didn’t know, we don’t need to be one way or the other – we can find the right balance – which we certainly don’t have at the moment with a Tory Government that is actively closing hospitals and reducing our police force amid a rising population. It doesn’t make sense.
You may not agree with all or any of Corbyn’s policies, but it should trouble you that newspapers exercise power and influence in a number of ways. It is not just that they have a giant megaphone letting them dominate the public debate/thought. They have privileged access to politicians (just check out Rupert Murdoch’s wedding guest list) and have the ability to effectively set the political agenda.
However, none of the newspapers have privileged access to Jeremy Corbyn. Love him or loathe him, he’s the modern equivalent to the un-bribable Chicago cops who took down Al Capone. An untouchable politician. But, what use is a left leaning politician to a right-wing media mogul billionaire if he won’t even get into bed with him?
Think about this…
A perfect example of how the right-wing press paints a dire picture of Corbyn was reflected in news rooms when the Labour leader turned down tickets to the opening game of the Rugby World Cup in 2015. The press slaughtered him. As did a number of high profile MPs.
The press claimed he had ‘snubbed’ the invite to the opening ceremony. Boris Jonhson was quoted saying “This is turning into a national joke…Come on Jezza: Scrum down for England.”
What wasn’t widely reported was that Corbyn had prior commitments, ‘scrumming down’ to meet with his constituents, the people he was elected to represent and serve.
He sat down for a private meeting with one of his homeless constituents to listen to her issues, as well as a full to the brim waiting room of others who had turned up to his weekly constituency meeting.
Whilst other politicians were quaffing down the free hospitality in the premier VIP seats, Corbyn was doing what the public elected him, and pay him to do.
Make up your own mind
The public has been crying out for a politician who isn’t part of the Bullingdon Club or Etonian alumni elite. Someone who stands up for their principles and isn’t a media lap dog. But, it seems those very characteristics could be Corbyn’s undoing unless the public take a closer look and shake off the propaganda shackles.
I’m not here to tell you which way you vote, just to acknowledge the media we digest on a daily basis. Remember to ask yourself the question; Have I really made up my own mind?
Article by guest contributor Robert Owens."
thelondoneconomic.com

...to be honest, i’m not reading that post, it’s much too long and it doesn’t matter.

Whether he’s the greatest thing on Earth, voters don’t like Corbyn. You can blame the press, you can blame whoever you want but that situation doesn’t change. Folk who don’t like him won’t suddenly like him, he’s old school with too many skeletons in the cupboard.

The Momentum members aren’t smart enough to shift him and he’s not smart enough to go. Labour is run by Momentum. It’s all very good spouting reasoned analysis, but it’s only convincing the voters who vote Labour anyway. This is a Tory Government on the rocks, we need a strong Labour Party but we have this lot.

Not sure how Momentum Labour can possibly win but I hope they can.
 
I honestly struggle to see how getting hundreds of thousands more members, millions more votes and putting the finances of the party into the black for the first time in years doesn’t qualify as having at least a bit of political nous.

He's got hundreds of thousands more members from the people who already vote Labour and are most likely already safe Labour seats.

The fight is out there, not inside. To win an election now with the SNP holding Scotland he has to start turning safe Tory seats red. Whatever way you cut it, he is not going to do that.
 
He's got hundreds of thousands more members from the people who already vote Labour and are most likely already safe Labour seats.

The fight is out there, not inside. To win an election now with the SNP holding Scotland he has to start turning safe Tory seats red. Whatever way you cut it, he is not going to do that.

Aside from Iraq, Blair and Brown achieved an awful lot for reducing poverty, regeneration of the NHS and schools, and even for housing - compared with the Tories since. They recognised that half a loaf is better than no loaf at all. Compromise of ultimate ideals is essential to be politically electable. Momentum is liable to leave the "pure" Labour party powerless on the opposition benches. That may leave the only hope that the Brexit party split the Tory vote, and that there are enough LibDem and SNP, Plaid, SDLP and Greens to form a coalition of the relatively sane and practical. Interesting times....
 
Aside from Iraq, Blair and Brown achieved an awful lot for reducing poverty, regeneration of the NHS and schools, and even for housing - compared with the Tories since. They recognised that half a loaf is better than no loaf at all. Compromise of ultimate ideals is essential to be politically electable. Momentum is liable to leave the "pure" Labour party powerless on the opposition benches. That may leave the only hope that the Brexit party split the Tory vote, and that there are enough LibDem and SNP, Plaid, SDLP and Greens to form a coalition of the relatively sane and practical. Interesting times....

Exactly mate, you could have all the most well meaning policies in the world but if you are nowhere near power in a way you are helping the other side. The more divisions and lower the number of seats will further empower a Tory government to be more radical with their policies.

The fact that we have a basket case government and the polls still show Labour are behind tells all you need to know. It was a risk with Corbyn and it hasn't paid off. The fact that he may yet be PM under a rainbow coalition should not mask the situation. If there had been a 'New Labour' candidate running under a centre-left manifesto they would be about to walk the upcoming election. How many election defeats will it take them to realise this?
 
In any case, it is always instructive to see how well @tsubaki understands Labour history and British history - and how poorly informed and stubbornly ignorant the rote talking points that are mindlessly recited here against him always turn out to be, which deflate upon the slightest scrutiny.

Utter nonsense. Sorry, but it's one interpretation of 'Labour history', one where Blair doesn't count as he wasn't 'really' Labour... despite being the only one able to bring that party to power in living memory.

I understand that history of Labour, I know it is much closer akin to Corbyn than Blair over the course of its' history, but that means absolutely nothing when it comes to the core aim of any political party - gaining power in the modern day.

It's not the 1960/70s. Being 'true' to an outdated ideology does Labour no favours at all. Labour isn't supposed to be a party of protest - it's supposed to be a pragmatic, modern party of power. There's been a centre-right or centre-left government in the UK for in excess of 30 years, arguably longer (much longer in my view - Wilson was centrist for his era, and Callaghan definitely was - so you're going as far back as Attlee), with the right wing being more preferred.

As for not understanding British history? I do mate, I really do. Let's leave it at that.
 
To Corbyn/Momentum supporters, my simple question is this.

Is it worth rigidly sticking to ideology if the net result is that you act as enablers for the Tories to stay in power?

Is that a price worth paying for "sticking to your guns"?
 
To Corbyn/Momentum supporters, my simple question is this.

Is it worth rigidly sticking to ideology if the net result is that you act as enablers for the Tories to stay in power?

Is that a price worth paying for "sticking to your guns"?

I think we've been willing to compromise on a number of issues.

I've been a left-wing member of the Labour Party under Blair, Brown, Miliband, and now Corbyn - and not once have I ever (and I really mean ever) gone out of my way to publicly slate the party in the manner we see the wreckers on the right do right now.
 
Well I think the whole figure was largely discredited (and poorly reported by the press).

https://www.ippr.org/files/2019-06/public-health-and-prevention-june19.pdf#page=8 is the full report that they based their stories on, and it simply says that the trend of avoidable deaths had largely been falling between 1990-2012, but rose slightly between 2012-2017, thus causing the 130,000 extra avoidable deaths in that time. Nowhere does the report say this was as a result of austerity policies.

Indeed, the authors themselves suggest half of those deaths are linked to unhealthy behaviours such as smoking, alcohol, poor diet and low levels of exercise, all of which tends to result in obesity. It says that preventative services have been hit by austerity, and this doesn't help the situation, but nowhere does it say that reductions in spending caused 130,000 deaths, and certainly not a lack of food, shelter or other things that could be linked to extreme poverty.

I note that you didn't answer my question.

I'll ask again.

Are you content with people dying as of a result of wholly economic circumstances?
 
Exactly mate, you could have all the most well meaning policies in the world but if you are nowhere near power in a way you are helping the other side. The more divisions and lower the number of seats will further empower a Tory government to be more radical with their policies.

The fact that we have a basket case government and the polls still show Labour are behind tells all you need to know. It was a risk with Corbyn and it hasn't paid off. The fact that he may yet be PM under a rainbow coalition should not mask the situation. If there had been a 'New Labour' candidate running under a centre-left manifesto they would be about to walk the upcoming election. How many election defeats will it take them to realise this?
What might have been's don't really help, but just think where we would be if Ed had not stood against David Milliband. Such a lost opportunity. Nearly as bad as Gordon Brown (and Jim Callaghan) not going for an Autumn election
 
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