Current Affairs The Labour Party

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I try to be as balanced as possible with Corbyn but I actually thought his speech yesterday was very good. I am not uncritical, I think his handling of Brexit has been awful, as has his handling of the Palestinian stuff and the de-selections (but probably for completely different reasons than what most of the political commentators would have you believe!).

However that speech yesterday was really good. I agree with people saying large parts are unrealistic. I think there's a couple of points on that though. We no longer live in an age where realistic politics is going to be effective. People are extremely angry after austerity and want radical alternatives that don't pass the test of realism within the current context. Johnson understands this and will fight on the same basis. Appealing to a "sensible" middle ground in an increasingly polarised space is a disastrous strategy. Unfortunately most people who comment on politics will have you believe that's what's required because it's what they believe, it doesn't make it right though.

You also have to acknowledge, that he is picking the fights with the right people from an electoral perspective. Nigel Farage has made a career of this, he proposes things that could never be achieved but are popular and then turns the attacks on those who don't implement them. It's an astute approach. He has framed problems with the NHS on Drug companies. They are very shady and to an extent are costing people lives. The right lead us to believe the NHS is failing because of migrants. If the lefts response is to say the NHS is great, when people see it's struggling they will lose. It's a good new front to open up and it will outflank the right.

The same is true of private schools, most people can't stand them and it turns the frustrations on the wealthier sections of society. Likewise with OFSTED it's an easy fight to pick and gain capital from.

There is a reluctance from the centre to the right to acknowledge Corbyn is actually good at anything. I don't know how they think he got 38% of the vote (a figure only Blair can beat in the last 40 years). He continually has terrible approval ratings and most of his party against him so it's not because of clear strong leadership. It's because the policies he has are very popular. He's doubled down on them.

This puts a lot of pressure on Johnson and Cummins, who's strategy is clearly to try and outflank Labour to the left on domestic issues and money for services. That has been blown out of the sky with those policies. Whether they choose to make any attempt to keep up and thus triangulate them, or have to completely change tact is up to them. Neither option is a good one really.

So yes well done Corbyn, he also got some good shots in on Johnson and I would say it was a very effective speech and one of his best.
 
I try to be as balanced as possible with Corbyn but I actually thought his speech yesterday was very good. I am not uncritical, I think his handling of Brexit has been awful, as has his handling of the Palestinian stuff and the de-selections (but probably for completely different reasons than what most of the political commentators would have you believe!).

However that speech yesterday was really good. I agree with people saying large parts are unrealistic. I think there's a couple of points on that though. We no longer live in an age where realistic politics is going to be effective. People are extremely angry after austerity and want radical alternatives that don't pass the test of realism within the current context. Johnson understands this and will fight on the same basis. Appealing to a "sensible" middle ground in an increasingly polarised space is a disastrous strategy. Unfortunately most people who comment on politics will have you believe that's what's required because it's what they believe, it doesn't make it right though.

You also have to acknowledge, that he is picking the fights with the right people from an electoral perspective. Nigel Farage has made a career of this, he proposes things that could never be achieved but are popular and then turns the attacks on those who don't implement them. It's an astute approach. He has framed problems with the NHS on Drug companies. They are very shady and to an extent are costing people lives. The right lead us to believe the NHS is failing because of migrants. If the lefts response is to say the NHS is great, when people see it's struggling they will lose. It's a good new front to open up and it will outflank the right.

The same is true of private schools, most people can't stand them and it turns the frustrations on the wealthier sections of society. Likewise with OFSTED it's an easy fight to pick and gain capital from.

There is a reluctance from the centre to the right to acknowledge Corbyn is actually good at anything. I don't know how they think he got 38% of the vote (a figure only Blair can beat in the last 40 years). He continually has terrible approval ratings and most of his party against him so it's not because of clear strong leadership. It's because the policies he has are very popular. He's doubled down on them.

This puts a lot of pressure on Johnson and Cummins, who's strategy is clearly to try and outflank Labour to the left on domestic issues and money for services. That has been blown out of the sky with those policies. Whether they choose to make any attempt to keep up and thus triangulate them, or have to completely change tact is up to them. Neither option is a good one really.

So yes well done Corbyn, he also got some good shots in on Johnson and I would say it was a very effective speech and one of his best.

The fact, that corbyn isnt storming ahead in the polls when opposing the most incompetent govt in living memory says everything you need to know about him.
 
The fact, that corbyn isnt storming ahead in the polls when opposing the most incompetent govt in living memory says everything you need to know about him.

Depends if you still believe the debunked notion that Brexit is just a simple matter of leaving and then waiting for the super-duper deal the EU would beg us to sign. Or it is indeed as generally excepted, Brexit is the most important and complicated set of decisions this country has made since the late 1930s.
If it's the latter only those looking for the next messiah would expect someone to be racing ahead in the polls.
 
However that speech yesterday was really good. I agree with people saying large parts are unrealistic. I think there's a couple of points on that though. We no longer live in an age where realistic politics is going to be effective. People are extremely angry after austerity and want radical alternatives that don't pass the test of realism within the current context. Johnson understands this and will fight on the same basis. Appealing to a "sensible" middle ground in an increasingly polarised space is a disastrous strategy. Unfortunately most people who comment on politics will have you believe that's what's required because it's what they believe, it doesn't make it right though.

If Corbyn doesn't go ahead now with what he said at the conference he will be branded a liar. If he goes ahead with it he is giving the opposing parties an easy way to attack it, pointing out costs etc.

What we have here is perhaps the first social experiment in this country's history where a government is going to try and massively spend its way to success. However if all that money is pumped in and we do not see record tax receipts from the investments and jobs created then there is a fair old chance that with the debt run up from this program we could become the next Greece.

Personally I don't believe enough people are going to go for this, but perhaps enough of Labour voters will that will keep the Brexit/Tory party away from historical Labour seats. Maybe he knows that it would have to be a coalition this time around with an all new manifesto created by the group of parties, so this one he can push as far as he wants knowing it won't go anywhere.
 
I'm not sure on most of that statement though. Polls are unreliable, Corbyn performs better in electoral periods, and this government is massively popular and unpopular depending on who you ask.

The question of how popular they are is the key; personally I think the fact they have to have wall to wall press coverage suggests that they aren’t.
 
I try to be as balanced as possible with Corbyn but I actually thought his speech yesterday was very good. I am not uncritical, I think his handling of Brexit has been awful, as has his handling of the Palestinian stuff and the de-selections (but probably for completely different reasons than what most of the political commentators would have you believe!).

However that speech yesterday was really good. I agree with people saying large parts are unrealistic. I think there's a couple of points on that though. We no longer live in an age where realistic politics is going to be effective. People are extremely angry after austerity and want radical alternatives that don't pass the test of realism within the current context. Johnson understands this and will fight on the same basis. Appealing to a "sensible" middle ground in an increasingly polarised space is a disastrous strategy. Unfortunately most people who comment on politics will have you believe that's what's required because it's what they believe, it doesn't make it right though.

You also have to acknowledge, that he is picking the fights with the right people from an electoral perspective. Nigel Farage has made a career of this, he proposes things that could never be achieved but are popular and then turns the attacks on those who don't implement them. It's an astute approach. He has framed problems with the NHS on Drug companies. They are very shady and to an extent are costing people lives. The right lead us to believe the NHS is failing because of migrants. If the lefts response is to say the NHS is great, when people see it's struggling they will lose. It's a good new front to open up and it will outflank the right.

The same is true of private schools, most people can't stand them and it turns the frustrations on the wealthier sections of society. Likewise with OFSTED it's an easy fight to pick and gain capital from.

There is a reluctance from the centre to the right to acknowledge Corbyn is actually good at anything. I don't know how they think he got 38% of the vote (a figure only Blair can beat in the last 40 years). He continually has terrible approval ratings and most of his party against him so it's not because of clear strong leadership. It's because the policies he has are very popular. He's doubled down on them.

This puts a lot of pressure on Johnson and Cummins, who's strategy is clearly to try and outflank Labour to the left on domestic issues and money for services. That has been blown out of the sky with those policies. Whether they choose to make any attempt to keep up and thus triangulate them, or have to completely change tact is up to them. Neither option is a good one really.

So yes well done Corbyn, he also got some good shots in on Johnson and I would say it was a very effective speech and one of his best.

I can see why his rhetoric could be useful from an election perspective, but that just underlines how ignorant most of the electorate are on these matters. The NHS isn't suffering because of pharma companies price gouging (although that does happen) any more than income inequality is caused by private schools. I fully understand why he's fighting rhetorical nonsense with rhetorical nonsense from an election perspective, but not only is this populist firefight ungratifying from a governance perspective (as most of it is twaddle), but it appears to upset Labourites who dislike accusations that he is being populist.

Regarding his 'electoral success', I might be a useful bellweather on that front, as so utterly repugnant are the current Tory government that if I thought Labour could stop them gaining a majority I would hold my nose and vote for Corbyn. That's despite thinking his policies are either wholly unrealistic or very dangerous, and I would only vote for him because the Tories are so god damn awful and I don't think there's a hope in hell that he could do even a tenth of what he's proposing in a single term in office. In other words, there's no support for him whatsoever in my vote.

I wonder just how much of the support during the last election was of a similar bent, and that many of those who backed him previously will drift away this time round. After all, his personal approval ratings are dreadful among both leave and remain supporters, and just as we know more about what Brexit is after three years of this, we also know what Corbyn's approach to it has been, and that's not a compliment. I mean the Tories won the election in 2017 and it's hard to imagine any of that was down to the performance of May.
 
I'm not sure on most of that statement though. Polls are unreliable, Corbyn performs better in electoral periods, and this government is massively popular and unpopular depending on who you ask.

To be fair, there's only one electoral period to base that statement on, and as described above, there must be a reasonable number of people voting Labour simply because they were the defacto remain opposition at the time. The notion that each and every voter did so out of support for Corbyn is on flimsy ground imo.
 
Labour's new supposedly open door immigration policy? Any thoughts on whether this is actually going to be adopted as a manifesto pledge? Sounds bonkers and a gift from heaven for the Tories.
 
Labour's new supposedly open door immigration policy? Any thoughts on whether this is actually going to be adopted as a manifesto pledge? Sounds bonkers and a gift from heaven for the Tories.

Not often I say this, but I agree with them though. The fact that my missus can live here for 20 years, working and contributing to society and yet not have any say in the country is awful. We bang on about wanting migrants to integrate, so give them the right to vote. There is also a ton of evidence that open borders are a huge financial windfall for societies that adopt it. The only thing that's stopping us collecting that windfall is narrow minded xenophobia the likes of which Priti Patel immediately responded with. If Labour are seriously pushing back against that then I commend them for it.
 
Labour's new supposedly open door immigration policy? Any thoughts on whether this is actually going to be adopted as a manifesto pledge? Sounds bonkers and a gift from heaven for the Tories.
Labour just had to get through this conference without saying anything stupid or controversial. But no, let’s ban labour students and release nonense policies like this.
Inhave no real issue with immigration, but the fact is large sways of the population do. In a democracy they need to feel their voice heard and acted upon. A few nods in that direction the majority of the brexit stuff disappears and we can get back to business as usual
 
Labour just had to get through this conference without saying anything stupid or controversial. But no, let’s ban labour students and release nonense policies like this.
Inhave no real issue with immigration, but the fact is large sways of the population do. In a democracy they need to feel their voice heard and acted upon. A few nods in that direction the majority of the brexit stuff disappears and we can get back to business as usual

Solving misinformation is not done by pandering to it.
 
Not often I say this, but I agree with them though. The fact that my missus can live here for 20 years, working and contributing to society and yet not have any say in the country is awful. We bang on about wanting migrants to integrate, so give them the right to vote. There is also a ton of evidence that open borders are a huge financial windfall for societies that adopt it. The only thing that's stopping us collecting that windfall is narrow minded xenophobia the likes of which Priti Patel immediately responded with. If Labour are seriously pushing back against that then I commend them for it.

Agreed

But this is the sort of policy you implement or suggest once you've already won IMO

The big issue with Labour is that they rightly want to change the ways are currently done but they don't realise that they need to win first, which means they have to tone it down a bit to get their feet in the door

Something like this is just giving ammunition to the people who oppose them

Win, get a majority and you've then got five years to implement the policies you want

The best example is the NHS, which had lots of opposition to it but by the time Churchill came back in people had accepted it and he couldn't get rid of it (Even though he probably wanted to)

As depressing as it is, you need to know how to play the game, because you can't change the system until you win under the current one first
 
Agreed

But this is the sort of policy you implement or suggest once you've already won IMO

The big issue with Labour is that they rightly want to change the ways are currently done but they don't realise that they need to win first, which means they have to tone it down a bit to get their feet in the door

Something like this is just giving ammunition to the people who oppose them

Win, get a majority and you've then got five years to implement the policies you want

The best example is the NHS, which had lots of opposition to it but by the time Churchill came back in people had accepted it and he couldn't get rid of it (Even though he probably wanted to)

As depressing as it is, you need to know how to play the game, because you can't change the system until you win under the current one first

The NHS is a great example because for all the chat beforehand, all the talk of British Gestapos having to be brought in and whatnot once it was actually brought in people could see how much sense it made.

Some of Labour’s proposals won’t be like that, but at least a couple of them will be.
 
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