Current Affairs The Labour Party

[Bruce Wayne]

Aren't Labour ahead in the polls?

So what? The point of an opposition party (for the general public rather than party loyalists) is to do something. To hold the government to account, to influence policy, to do stuff for their local constituents. Something that makes the five years between elections worthwhile.

So what is it that Labour are trying to achieve from 2017-2022 and do you think they're doing a good job of achieving it?

 

[Number_25]

So what? The point of an opposition party (for the general public rather than party loyalists) is to do something. To hold the government to account, to influence policy, to do stuff for their local constituents. Something that makes the five years between elections worthwhile.

So what is it that Labour are trying to achieve from 2017-2022 and do you think they're doing a good job of achieving it?

We're winning a hell of a lot of arguments.

A Tory government has just implemented (albeit halfheartedly) price caps on energy firms.

Just be honest, your major gripe is that the Lib Dems are a shell of a party and are unable to do anything anymore after selling out to the Tories, so you're looking for Labour to be the "Stop Brexit" party - and you see Corbyn as a hindrance in that goal.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

We're winning a hell of a lot of arguments.

A Tory government has just implemented (albeit halfheartedly) price caps on energy firms.

Just be honest, your major gripe is that the Lib Dems are a shell of a party and are unable to do anything anymore after selling out to the Tories, so you're looking for Labour to be the "Stop Brexit" party - and you see Corbyn as a hindrance in that goal.

Of course, I long for there to be a bona fide centrist presence in politics, so neither red nor blue come close to speaking for me at the moment, but with respect to price caps on energy firms, that's small cheese. Far and away the biggest issue of this parliament is Brexit, and I'm not sure what the shadow cabinet have contributed to matters.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Hear Tony Blair has suggested a centrist party is the way to go, just like his centrist politics, wonder which country is going to get invaded and dismantled on some dodgy dossier... How many so called centrist party have we had this year? We were at 50 in February when the news cycle last covered this.

 

[catcherintherye]

You're basing your assertion that Labour are going great guns on things that only really matter to the Labour party (membership numbers etc.). The Economist article is basing their assertion on their competence in opposition. You're pleased that you're 2nd in a 2 horse race, I get that, but it's not really much of an accomplishment. I also get that you're more interested in Labour being in power than being an effective opposition. You're as much a Labour tribalist as you are an Everton tribalist, but most people aren't of the same mindset.

I'm not sure what looking like an effective/competent opposition looks like to you though Bruce?

For me it's partially about rebuilding the party (that was nearly bankrupt in recent times) into the biggest in Europe. More importantly though it was about increasing the vote share and number of votes. Would you agree this is a reasonable summation of what an effective opposition should be judged against?

If you do, then Labour achieved it's biggest % share of the vote in over 15 years (or 20 years if you are measuring England/Wales in a post SNP/nationalism world). There is only 1 election in the last 50 years we have received a higher number of votes (and again it's questionable whether that would be the case for England/Wales, it may well be the biggest in 50+ years). It's also the biggest increase in votes and share of votes in over 70 years.

Thats not to say I agree with everything Corbyn does (as it happens I don't). However there is a big difference between me subjectively saying I don't like or agree with something and ignoring the objective reality that this is one of the best performing and effective oppositions in the history of British politics.

The reality is that many people within the establishment can't seem to comprehend that. They assume because of their competency they should be winning. They haven't stopped to consider that their ideas must be really unpopular if they cannot get many votes. No doubt in papers like the economist or the Guardian that will make me a cross between some sort of veggie terrorist and a Mao secret police agent.

In the real world though, Labour are doing very well in opposition. Most voices in the "centrist" media either can't grasp reality or don't wish too. And when challenged on this launch a multitude of attacks upon people for telling the truth.

 

[catcherintherye]

So in just 6 months Labour have gone from a 7 point lead to a 4 point lead, bravo, bravo........

The thing is though Pete most of the Tory leads were prior to Chequers. I can't see them coming back.

There is an important point though, that the continual smearing of Corbyn and telling everyone how bad he's doing and is actually as bad as Hamas, Hitler, Stalin, the IRA, Putin and Mao combined is having a bit of a detrimental affect. This should come as no surprise. As a Labour supporter I hope they continue to attack him. People can see it's grossly unfair. If they laid off him he'd probably hang himself. That hasn't been realised yet.

 

[davek]

Aren't Labour ahead in the polls?

...an inconvenient truth.

 

[davek]

Does Blair not realise every time he opens his gob that Corbyn gets more support as people hate him so much?

Only time he should speak should be when he is on trial for the deaths of so many people in Iraq when he took us to war for no reason.

Tony Blair helped kill well over half a million people in his Iraq War crusade...and he's claiming to be a moderate.

He really should be on death row waitng for a lethal dosage if there was any justice in this world. At the very least he should be following the likes of Milosevic into The Hague for his war crimes trial.

 

[The binman chronicles]

I'm not sure what looking like an effective/competent opposition looks like to you though Bruce?

For me it's partially about rebuilding the party (that was nearly bankrupt in recent times) into the biggest in Europe. More importantly though it was about increasing the vote share and number of votes. Would you agree this is a reasonable summation of what an effective opposition should be judged against?

If you do, then Labour achieved it's biggest % share of the vote in over 15 years (or 20 years if you are measuring England/Wales in a post SNP/nationalism world). There is only 1 election in the last 50 years we have received a higher number of votes (and again it's questionable whether that would be the case for England/Wales, it may well be the biggest in 50+ years). It's also the biggest increase in votes and share of votes in over 70 years.

Thats not to say I agree with everything Corbyn does (as it happens I don't). However there is a big difference between me subjectively saying I don't like or agree with something and ignoring the objective reality that this is one of the best performing and effective oppositions in the history of British politics.

The reality is that many people within the establishment can't seem to comprehend that. They assume because of their competency they should be winning. They haven't stopped to consider that their ideas must be really unpopular if they cannot get many votes. No doubt in papers like the economist or the Guardian that will make me a cross between some sort of veggie terrorist and a Mao secret police agent.

In the real world though, Labour are doing very well in opposition. Most voices in the "centrist" media either can't grasp reality or don't wish too. And when challenged on this launch a multitude of attacks upon people for telling the truth.

Most of those extra votes came from the decimation of two other political parties and the mobilisation of supporters in already strong Labour areas. It doesn't matter if you have 51% or 100% of the vote in seats you already have, Labour need to start turning blue seats red and this is where he is not reaching out enough to be classed as effective opposition. All this when the Tories were/are sitting ducks, they should have done even better given the circumstances. Imho a Miliband led party might have actually won that last election.

There also is the fact that there appears to still be constant bickering inside the party when they should be fully focused on holding the government to account. Labour may still win the next election but that would be saying more about the state of the Tories instead of the effectiveness of Labour.

 

[zzr45]

We're winning a hell of a lot of arguments.

A Tory government has just implemented (albeit halfheartedly) price caps on energy firms.

Just be honest, your major gripe is that the Lib Dems are a shell of a party and are unable to do anything anymore after selling out to the Tories, so you're looking for Labour to be the "Stop Brexit" party - and you see Corbyn as a hindrance in that goal.

That’ll be the energy caps that were in the Tory manifesto then? Can’t see how that’s exactly a Labour win.

For a party dedicated to the advancement of the working man, you think they’d be major proponents of stop Brexit, seeing as so many people lean on it for work.

I’m not sure what arguments are being won, but it’s not exactly stopping the ship from sinking is it? As servants of the people, MPs on all sides are failing us, hence the countries apathy.

 

[davek]

Hear Tony Blair has suggested a centrist party is the way to go, just like his centrist politics, wonder which country is going to get invaded and dismantled on some dodgy dossier... How many so called centrist party have we had this year? We were at 50 in February when the news cycle last covered this.

A Blairite moderate - that means they're just up to their knees in blood.

 

[davek]

So what? The point of an opposition party (for the general public rather than party loyalists) is to do something. To hold the government to account, to influence policy, to do stuff for their local constituents. Something that makes the five years between elections worthwhile.

So what is it that Labour are trying to achieve from 2017-2022 and do you think they're doing a good job of achieving it?

It's a parliamentary party focussed on winning elections with no power to eradicate Tory policies or roll them back. You're asking for the impossible.

More properly you should be asking what the Labour Movement are doing for local constituents. That's what Momentum do: organise food banks, hold police authorities to account for their relations with BAME communities, picket where they can for such things as drawing attention to hospital closures, anti-fracking campaigns etc etc. Regardless of Momentum that's always been part of the LP tradition through organisations like trades unions and the co-operatve movement.

 

[Number_25]

Of course, I long for there to be a bona fide centrist presence in politics, so neither red nor blue come close to speaking for me at the moment, but with respect to price caps on energy firms, that's small cheese. Far and away the biggest issue of this parliament is Brexit, and I'm not sure what the shadow cabinet have contributed to matters.

The Liberal Democrats exist, and are at 6% in the polls - their entire campaign right now is as the "stop Brexit" party and have ultimately failed to win widespread popular support.

As for the price caps on energy firms, I agree that it doesn't go far enough. Energy poverty is of huge concern for many people (especially OAPs who often have to make the choice between eating or heating), and having half-arsed caps doesn't go far enough, but for the Conservatives to even admit that the current system is failing is a huge step forward from what we have seen post-Foot.

 

[Number_25]

A Blairite moderate - that means they're just up to their knees in blood.

This is also really depressing to read.

If you look at what has happened since, I'm extremely fortunate to have been in poverty under the leadership of New Labour - as opposed to the shambles that has presided since.

 

[catcherintherye]

Most of those extra votes came from the decimation of two other political parties and the mobilisation of supporters in already strong Labour areas. It doesn't matter if you have 51% or 100% of the vote in seats you already have, Labour need to start turning blue seats red and this is where he is not reaching out enough to be classed as effective opposition. All this when the Tories were/are sitting ducks, they should have done even better given the circumstances. Imho a Miliband led party might have actually won that last election.

There also is the fact that there appears to still be constant bickering inside the party when they should be fully focused on holding the government to account. Labour may still win the next election but that would be saying more about the state of the Tories instead of the effectiveness of Labour.

What would an effective opposition look like to you then mate?

I'm also not sure who these 2 political parties where who collapsed that should have benefitted Labour. Who were they?