Current Affairs The Labour Party

[zzr45]

Seems convenient, as when he doesn't lead like this he's "listening to the membership", and when he overrules everyone, he's "being a leader".

Corbyn is an infallible political force in an era of terrible politicians didn’t you know?

Some of the hero worship on display is as cringeworthy as the most die hard Brexit means Brexit argument.

 

[abelard]

The media are rubbish conduits for anything detailed and balanced, so if you want politics to be evidence-based and sensible then you have to find another way.

Well, ^this^ is true enough, but I'm not sure I buy that the reason why you turn up here gleefully each time a new poll has him down a few points is because he has not thus far publicly recited the complete EU Labour Code (subsections a though h, and including appendix I, II, III and IV).

I suspect it might have more to with the fact that when Corbyn says, for example, this, at the 2017 Conference

"One thing needs to be made clear straight away. The three million EU citizens currently living and working in Britain are welcome here. They have been left under a cloud of insecurity by this government when their future could have been settled months ago. So Theresa May, give them the full guarantees they deserve today. If you don’t, we will.

Labour is the only party that can bring together those who voted leave and those who backed remain and unite the country for a future beyond Brexit. What matters in the Brexit negotiations is to achieve a settlement that delivers jobs, rights and decent living standards.

Conference, the real divide over Brexit could not be clearer. A shambolic Tory Brexit driving down standards .Or a Labour Brexit that puts jobs first a Brexit for the many, one that guarantees unimpeded access to the single market and establishes a new co-operative relationship with the EU.

A Brexit that uses powers returned from Brussels to support a new industrial strategy to upgrade our economy in every region and nation. One that puts our economy first not fake immigration targets that fan the flames of fear. We will never follow the Tories into the gutter of blaming migrants for the ills of society. It isn’t migrants who drive down wages and conditions but the worst bosses in collusion with a Conservative government that never misses a chance to attack trade unions and weaken people’s rights at work.

Labour will take action to stop employers driving down pay and conditions not pander to scapegoating or racism. How Britain leaves the European Union is too
important to be left to the Conservatives and their internal battles and identity crises."

in other words, when he says exactly what you claim to want him to be saying (minus footnote 172.2b, Reference 11 of the EU Legal Code), Pravda reports it as this:

Jeremy Corbyn’s Brighton speech marks the surrender of Labour’s moderates
THE man in front of me in the queue to squeeze into the Labour conference hall in end-of-season Brighton was wearing a T-shirt emblazoned, “Where is the outrage?” We didn’t need to look far. The major key of the Corbynite melody is outrage, at “greedy bosses”, “the rich and powerful”, “tax exiles” and, the crowd’s favourite, “a failed dogma of neoliberalism”.

But this was a day when Jezza’s Greatest Hits were the playlist of choice for an invigorated audience. Applause as Mr Corbyn strode onto the podium was deafening and continued for the best part of five minutes. “Might we bring this conference to order?” wheedled Labour’s leader, lapping it up.

This year’s gathering of the clans was the coronation of Mr Corbyn in the wake of his successful insurgency in the general election in June. It also marks the formal surrender of Labour moderates, who were absent, demoted or consigned to the Siberian outer reaches of the event. MPs weren’t even allowed to step over a rope on the conference floor. “I feel like I’m in a nightclub that won’t let me in,” moaned one veteran.

A more confident speaker these days, Mr Corbyn has lost his paralysed fear of the autocue. He started with a bucketload of flattery for the troops. “The star of the campaign was you,” cried Mr Corbyn. “You are the future!” The overall effect was like a school speech-ceremony, addressed by a too oleaginous guest speaker. Labour activists had all done very marvellously, as long as they supported Jeremy.

For a party that traditionally recounts its historic achievement in speeches, paying tribute to its ancestors, there was one other striking departure this year. Former leaders were not mentioned at all—disappeared, like any other inconveniences, from the Corbynite vision of an ur-socialism on British soil.

Occasional signs of a spin-doctor’s touch have crept in, however. Mr Corbyn’s beard is now as neatly clipped as that of a Hoxton hipster. Coyly, he has taken to referring to the part of north London he represents in Parliament as “Finsbury Park”, rather than its official name of Islington North (smug Islington lefties being something of a standing joke in the pantheon of British political humour.)

Some moments caught the heart as well as the self-satisfaction of the crowd. A well-calibrated passage on the Grenfell Tower tragedy in London, in which a social-housing block caught fire, resulting in scores of casualties, was the sign of a “brutal, less caring society”. That will resonate.

Such insights were mercilessly milked, too, for ideological effect. So we segued neatly into a denunciation of gentrification and developers. All whistle-blowers had noble intentions. Commitments to re-nationalise utilities and expand public ownership of industry followed. Not long ago, this degree of ambition on the left would have been derided as fantasy, along the lines of the comical ditty by the late Alex Glasgow (an Old Labour folk singer), who sang, “As soon as this pub closes, the revolution starts.” The fringe of Labour thought has become the mainstream.

Brexit position, anyone? We got a thick fog of reassurances about everyone’s rights as Britain leaves the EU, and learned that Labour in power would not be an “inept negotiating team” (good to know). Migrants were not responsible for Blighty’s problems (also nice to hear). Not an EU-compliant sausage about what Labour’s approach to staying in or out of the single market would entail.

Street-fighting man landed a good few blows on the government. The charge of a “coalition of chaos”, lobbed by the Tories at Labour was sent squarely back towards the prime minister’s squabbling cabinet. Labour audiences love this as much as the Tories relish parading Labour’s incompetence.

But the cultural drivers of Corbynism are not just about the old Punch and Judy show between mainstream parties. This is something different. On the fringe, I spotted an “acid Corbynism” event. It turned out to be a very long seminar on the delights of Venezuela and public ownership, with a bit of random dancing attached. The Corbynite faith also preaches a kind of freedom, from the perils of the markets, the orthodoxies of your parents’ politics and the belief that all sorts of bad things can be turned into good ones easily, if only enough people believed in Jeremy and the rich were taxed more.

It revives one of the oldest radical desires in the world: Utopian socialism, without the fun-killing authoritarianism in tow. Even without the acid, they’re pretty sure here in Brighton that Mr Corbyn is bringing it on.

 

[tsubaki]

Thanks mate. So more of a steering group than a full on policy making forum?

Not making, no. The resolutions stem from elsewhere, are filtered and managed, and then Conference gets to vote on the ones selected.

 

[roydo]

Not making, no. The resolutions stem from elsewhere, are filtered and managed, and then Conference gets to vote on the ones selected.

Thanks again. Makes perfect sense.

 

[tsubaki]

Corbyn is an infallible political force in an era of terrible politicians didn’t you know?

Some of the hero worship on display is as cringeworthy as the most die hard Brexit means Brexit argument.

What hero worship? The vast majority of pro-Corbyn posts on this thread are about correcting statements that people have heard elsewhere and repeat here despite them being easily disproveable. Take November's debate over his wife's coffee business, for instance.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Well, ^this^ is true enough, but I'm not sure I buy that the reason why you turn up here gleefully each time a new poll has him down a few points is because he has not thus far publicly recited the complete EU Labour Code (subsections a though h, and including appendix I, II, III and IV).

I suspect it might have more to with the fact that when Corbyn says, for example, this, at the 2017 Conference

"One thing needs to be made clear straight away. The three million EU citizens currently living and working in Britain are welcome here. They have been left under a cloud of insecurity by this government when their future could have been settled months ago. So Theresa May, give them the full guarantees they deserve today. If you don’t, we will.

Labour is the only party that can bring together those who voted leave and those who backed remain and unite the country for a future beyond Brexit. What matters in the Brexit negotiations is to achieve a settlement that delivers jobs, rights and decent living standards.

Conference, the real divide over Brexit could not be clearer. A shambolic Tory Brexit driving down standards .Or a Labour Brexit that puts jobs first a Brexit for the many, one that guarantees unimpeded access to the single market and establishes a new co-operative relationship with the EU.

A Brexit that uses powers returned from Brussels to support a new industrial strategy to upgrade our economy in every region and nation. One that puts our economy first not fake immigration targets that fan the flames of fear. We will never follow the Tories into the gutter of blaming migrants for the ills of society. It isn’t migrants who drive down wages and conditions but the worst bosses in collusion with a Conservative government that never misses a chance to attack trade unions and weaken people’s rights at work.

Labour will take action to stop employers driving down pay and conditions not pander to scapegoating or racism. How Britain leaves the European Union is too
important to be left to the Conservatives and their internal battles and identity crises."

in other words, when he says exactly what you claim to want him to be saying (minus footnote 172.2b, Reference 11 of the EU Legal Code), Pravda reports it as this:

Jeremy Corbyn’s Brighton speech marks the surrender of Labour’s moderates
THE man in front of me in the queue to squeeze into the Labour conference hall in end-of-season Brighton was wearing a T-shirt emblazoned, “Where is the outrage?” We didn’t need to look far. The major key of the Corbynite melody is outrage, at “greedy bosses”, “the rich and powerful”, “tax exiles” and, the crowd’s favourite, “a failed dogma of neoliberalism”.

But this was a day when Jezza’s Greatest Hits were the playlist of choice for an invigorated audience. Applause as Mr Corbyn strode onto the podium was deafening and continued for the best part of five minutes. “Might we bring this conference to order?” wheedled Labour’s leader, lapping it up.

This year’s gathering of the clans was the coronation of Mr Corbyn in the wake of his successful insurgency in the general election in June. It also marks the formal surrender of Labour moderates, who were absent, demoted or consigned to the Siberian outer reaches of the event. MPs weren’t even allowed to step over a rope on the conference floor. “I feel like I’m in a nightclub that won’t let me in,” moaned one veteran.

A more confident speaker these days, Mr Corbyn has lost his paralysed fear of the autocue. He started with a bucketload of flattery for the troops. “The star of the campaign was you,” cried Mr Corbyn. “You are the future!” The overall effect was like a school speech-ceremony, addressed by a too oleaginous guest speaker. Labour activists had all done very marvellously, as long as they supported Jeremy.

For a party that traditionally recounts its historic achievement in speeches, paying tribute to its ancestors, there was one other striking departure this year. Former leaders were not mentioned at all—disappeared, like any other inconveniences, from the Corbynite vision of an ur-socialism on British soil.

Occasional signs of a spin-doctor’s touch have crept in, however. Mr Corbyn’s beard is now as neatly clipped as that of a Hoxton hipster. Coyly, he has taken to referring to the part of north London he represents in Parliament as “Finsbury Park”, rather than its official name of Islington North (smug Islington lefties being something of a standing joke in the pantheon of British political humour.)

Some moments caught the heart as well as the self-satisfaction of the crowd. A well-calibrated passage on the Grenfell Tower tragedy in London, in which a social-housing block caught fire, resulting in scores of casualties, was the sign of a “brutal, less caring society”. That will resonate.

Such insights were mercilessly milked, too, for ideological effect. So we segued neatly into a denunciation of gentrification and developers. All whistle-blowers had noble intentions. Commitments to re-nationalise utilities and expand public ownership of industry followed. Not long ago, this degree of ambition on the left would have been derided as fantasy, along the lines of the comical ditty by the late Alex Glasgow (an Old Labour folk singer), who sang, “As soon as this pub closes, the revolution starts.” The fringe of Labour thought has become the mainstream.

Brexit position, anyone? We got a thick fog of reassurances about everyone’s rights as Britain leaves the EU, and learned that Labour in power would not be an “inept negotiating team” (good to know). Migrants were not responsible for Blighty’s problems (also nice to hear). Not an EU-compliant sausage about what Labour’s approach to staying in or out of the single market would entail.

Street-fighting man landed a good few blows on the government. The charge of a “coalition of chaos”, lobbed by the Tories at Labour was sent squarely back towards the prime minister’s squabbling cabinet. Labour audiences love this as much as the Tories relish parading Labour’s incompetence.

But the cultural drivers of Corbynism are not just about the old Punch and Judy show between mainstream parties. This is something different. On the fringe, I spotted an “acid Corbynism” event. It turned out to be a very long seminar on the delights of Venezuela and public ownership, with a bit of random dancing attached. The Corbynite faith also preaches a kind of freedom, from the perils of the markets, the orthodoxies of your parents’ politics and the belief that all sorts of bad things can be turned into good ones easily, if only enough people believed in Jeremy and the rich were taxed more.

It revives one of the oldest radical desires in the world: Utopian socialism, without the fun-killing authoritarianism in tow. Even without the acid, they’re pretty sure here in Brighton that Mr Corbyn is bringing it on.

Sure, it's a good start, but then he goes and says this at the 2018 Scottish conference

"We cannot be held back inside or outside the EU from taking the steps we need to develop and invest in cutting edge industries and local business stop the tide of privatisation and outsourcing, or from preventing employers being able to import cheap agency labour to undercut existing pay and conditions in the name of free market orthodoxy."

or this on Good Morning Britain

"Migrant workers come to this country, work incredibly hard, pay taxes, receive actually less in benefits than the rest of the community — without them we wouldn't have much of a health service or social care system. So lets be realistic about it.

"We've got an ageing population, those workers are necessary in this country. My point is that employers, particularly the construction industry others as well, recruit overseas in order to bring in the whole group of workers to destroy existing wages and working conditions, so Mike Ashley can bring in workers in Sports Direct to pay grotesquely low wages and appalling work conditions."

despite there being no evidence that migrants destroy existing wages and working conditions, as debunked here - https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-wages/

I suspect the reality is that many right wing folk dislike migrants because they just hate foreigners, whereas left wing folk dislike migrants because they believe the mantra that they destroy wages, take jobs and make the working class worse off.

 

[tsubaki]

I suspect the reality is that many right wing folk dislike migrants because they just hate foreigners, whereas left wing folk dislike migrants because they believe the mantra that they destroy wages, take jobs and make the working class worse off.

from your link:

Studies find that immigration affects low-waged workers the most negatively. They disagree on whether it has been good or bad for wages overall but tend to show that the effect is small and also short-term.

and

There is quite a lot of evidence that immigration affects low-waged workers the most negatively, and not just in construction.

• Research from University College London finds that an inflow of immigrants the size of 1% of the UK-born population leads to a 0.6% decline in the wages of the 5% lowest paid workers and to an increase in the wages of higher paid workers.
• Similarly, another study focusing on wage effects at the occupational level during 1992 and 2006, found that, in the unskilled and semi-skilled service sector, a 1% rise in the share of immigrants reduced average wages in that occupation by 0.5%.
• An updated version of this study, considering the period between 1992 and 2014, found similar results. This study found that a 1% rise in the share of immigrants reduced averages wages in unskilled and semi-skilled service sector by just under 0.2%.

The available research also shows that any declines in wages are likely to be greatest for resident workers who are themselves migrants. This is because the skills of new immigrants are likely to be more similar to the skills of migrants already employed in the UK than for those of UK-born workers.

I should add that I agree migrants are not responsible for that, but the wages and (more importantly) the conditions of the working class have clearly declined in the past fifteen years - because of government policies (especially the rise in housing, transport and education costs), rather than migration though.

 

[roydo]

I suspect the reality is that many right wing folk dislike migrants because they just hate foreigners, whereas left wing folk dislike migrants because they believe the mantra that they destroy wages, take jobs and make the working class worse off.

Pretty sure the (many) migrant workers in my line get the exact same pay and conditions that are set by the Government as the good old Brits do.

Why there are a significant number of migrant workers who are fine working nights unloading lorries, then lobbing the sacks at the many migrant delivery drivers is anyones guess mind.

 

[zzr45]

What hero worship? The vast majority of pro-Corbyn posts on this thread are about correcting statements that people have heard elsewhere and repeat here despite them being easily disproveable. Take November's debate over his wife's coffee business, for instance.

Yeah. There’s been no contradictions or anything based on the feelings of the great one that week. The DUP/ERG haven’t been scum one week then heroes the next week based on their usefulness to the middle class saviour.

 

[tsubaki]

Yeah. There’s been no contradictions or anything based on the feelings of the great one that week. The DUP/ERG haven’t been scum one week then heroes the next week based on their usefulness to the middle class saviour.

I’d love to see where the pro-Corbyn faction here have called the DUP/ERG heroes.

 

[abelard]

Sure, it's a good start, but then he goes and says this at the 2018 Scottish conference



or this on Good Morning Britain



despite there being no evidence that migrants destroy existing wages and working conditions, as debunked here - https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-wages/

I suspect the reality is that many right wing folk dislike migrants because they just hate foreigners, whereas left wing folk dislike migrants because they believe the mantra that they destroy wages, take jobs and make the working class worse off.

So Corbyn condemns the exploitation of migrant workers, and this is evidence that he is anti-immigration?

Pretty sure the (many) migrant workers in my line get the exact same pay and conditions that are set by the Government as the good old Brits do.

But whole other sectors of the economy rely on exploiting migrant labour. Partnering with criminal gangs to suppress wages etc. is standard practice in construction, and agriculture:

Forced labour in the UK: ‘I tried to escape… they cut my finger off’
https://www.ft.com/content/f7ae5cf8-8f94-11e8-b639-7680cedcc421

The gangsters on England's doorstep
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/11/gangsters-on-our-doorstep

It is not 'liberal' or pro-immigration to just ignore this, or to try to turn it against those few politicians who speak out against it.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

So Corbyn condemns the exploitation of migrant workers, and this is evidence that he is anti-immigration?




But whole other sectors of the economy rely on exploiting migrant labour. Partnering with criminal gangs to suppress wages etc. is standard practice in construction, and agriculture:

Forced labour in the UK: ‘I tried to escape… they cut my finger off’
https://www.ft.com/content/f7ae5cf8-8f94-11e8-b639-7680cedcc421

The gangsters on England's doorstep
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/may/11/gangsters-on-our-doorstep

It is not 'liberal' or pro-immigration to just ignore this, or to try to turn it against those few politicians who speak out against it.

I didn't say Corbyn was anti-immigration as a result of that statement, I said that many leave-voting Labour supporters have swallowed the rhetoric that migration hurts their employment prospect, either through dampening wages or taking jobs (or both). As the reports highlighted in full fact show, whilst the impact is greater on lower skilled (which is kinda obvious as any increase in the available workforce is going to impact those with least to offer), the impact was nonetheless small.

This seems akin to his campaigning for remain during the referendum. He seems to say things but no one seems to listen. Last year Diane Abbot called for a new conversation about migration, which is clearly needed, I'm just not sure when that conversation is due to start.

 

[zzr45]

I’d love to see where the pro-Corbyn faction here have called the DUP/ERG heroes.

That would be when Corbyn was doing his no confidence vote and a few on here (yourself included) got a bit over excited and thought the DUP would flip and Daddy would get to sit in the big seat.

 

[abelard]

I didn't say Corbyn was anti-immigration as a result of that statement, I said that many leave-voting Labour supporters have swallowed the rhetoric that migration hurts their employment prospect, either through dampening wages or taking jobs (or both). As the reports highlighted in full fact show, whilst the impact is greater on lower skilled (which is kinda obvious as any increase in the available workforce is going to impact those with least to offer), the impact was nonetheless small.

This seems akin to his campaigning for remain during the referendum. He seems to say things but no one seems to listen. Last year Diane Abbot called for a new conversation about migration, which is clearly needed, I'm just not sure when that conversation is due to start.

well, we've certainly come a long way from where we started yesterday

He seems to say things but no one seems to listen

Yes, it sure is interesting how so much of what he actually says is ignored, or misrepresented. I wonder why that might be?

I and many other posters have also noted this for some time and in some detail here...

But no one seems to listen ; )

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

It's becoming a home for the salty centre right liberal elite. Oh Jeremy Corbyn....

Not so salty is Mark Drakeford first minister of Wales and close ally of Jeremy Corbyn gets to grips with fairer society in Wales, where care leavers wont have to pay council tax, until they are 25.

Council tax scrapped for care leavers across Wales

From April, young people leaving the care system in Wales will not pay the tax until they are aged 25.

www.bbc.co.uk