Current Affairs The Labour Party

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I think supporters of Labour need to hold their/our nerve a bit.

It's all well and good pointing out the weakness of Corbyn's leadership. There's probably some truth to it. However there is a reasonable question of exactly what would you have him do? If he comes out in support of a 2nd referendum expect to see lots of his Northern MP's (such as Jon Mann) at best become Independent and at worst split to form a new party. If he supports Brexit expect to potentially see the other wing of the party around Chuka Umana looking to do something similar.

I don't see why people from the right of the party are criticising him for supporting Brexit when he voted against May's deal, while allowing their former and current allies such as Mann, Woodcock etc to vote with the Tory Brexit deal that would take us out of the Customs union. Where is the consistency in that?

The lack of consistency masks a deeper ploy. They do not want Corbyn in. It's not just naive inconsistency, there's a deliberate policy here.

What you've got with Brexit is an almighty mess. There's no good way out of this now. Every turn May has made has been for her own self preservation and that of the Conservative Party and it has been to the detriment of the country. If Labour came in now it would be an enormously difficult situation.

What May wants is to spread the contagion she has caused, minimise the tension and splits within her own party and come to an arrangement where she can continue to hold power to pursue her failed domestic agenda. For Labour it makes sense to avoid bailing her out on any of those points. At times it will look like inaction from Corbyn but there is a strategy there. But things take more than a few days to take hold.

Initially people are a bit lukewarm to a general election. The calls for this will grow though, all the while a consensus cannot be reached. The only way a consensus can be reached is if May stands up to the right of her party and offers a deal that allows for a customs union and back tracks on freedom of movement. That will see a split in the Tory party and it's destruction. It might sound crass, but for Labour, let it happen. They have got themselves into this mess, now they need to suffer the consequences.

Don't allow the media to portray this as anything other than that. May is not pursuing the national interest. Being objective neither is Corbyn. None of these talks on either front are about that. They are self preservation. Corbyn needs to safeguard Labour as best as possible. We are long passed the point where this Brexit stuff can now be rescued to not do damage. For me, the people who caused this mess should be allowed to face the full consequences of it.
 
Apologies for going on, I just thought I'd add, just as the call for a General Election will gain traction as it starts to sink in that the Parliamentary Arithmetic doesn't work, so too will Corbyn's position he will talk if a no deal is taken off the table gain traction too.

There will be an enormous fear campaign placed upon no deal in the coming weeks. He has got his position in very early and established that he is the man to prevent No Deal. I think this will play well. As I say give it a couple of weeks.
 
Not rejoicing at anyone’s death. Just pointing out that the the elderly generation were more likely to vote leave, and there will now be less of them. Unpalatable, but true. Young people are more likely to vote Remain, and there will now be more of them eligible to vote, which compounds the effect.

I haven’t seen any polls which suggest Leave would still win, but maybe I just haven’t looked hard enough.
Inexperience and naivety against experience and wisdom ?
 
She was useless all night so has thrown the race card to deflect it again. She is like the boy who cried wolf, not every time people criticise her is down to race it is down to the fact she is a complete nincompoop.

She is correct!

Just look how Rory Stewart was received and treated, although only weeks ago lied live on radio about 80% of electorate supported Mays deal when challenged basically stated that he had made it up for illustration purposes to further his point, ironic he is the Prison ministers. It was reported, however, no where near what Abbot receives

Compare that to furoe that Abbot gets when she can't recall figures or gets them wrong!?

Only difference one is white educated male the other black educated women, Racist/Misogyny or too many are still to eager to doff their cap to white privileged educated men
 
I think supporters of Labour need to hold their/our nerve a bit.

It's all well and good pointing out the weakness of Corbyn's leadership. There's probably some truth to it. However there is a reasonable question of exactly what would you have him do? If he comes out in support of a 2nd referendum expect to see lots of his Northern MP's (such as Jon Mann) at best become Independent and at worst split to form a new party. If he supports Brexit expect to potentially see the other wing of the party around Chuka Umana looking to do something similar.

I don't see why people from the right of the party are criticising him for supporting Brexit when he voted against May's deal, while allowing their former and current allies such as Mann, Woodcock etc to vote with the Tory Brexit deal that would take us out of the Customs union. Where is the consistency in that?

The lack of consistency masks a deeper ploy. They do not want Corbyn in. It's not just naive inconsistency, there's a deliberate policy here.

What you've got with Brexit is an almighty mess. There's no good way out of this now. Every turn May has made has been for her own self preservation and that of the Conservative Party and it has been to the detriment of the country. If Labour came in now it would be an enormously difficult situation.

What May wants is to spread the contagion she has caused, minimise the tension and splits within her own party and come to an arrangement where she can continue to hold power to pursue her failed domestic agenda. For Labour it makes sense to avoid bailing her out on any of those points. At times it will look like inaction from Corbyn but there is a strategy there. But things take more than a few days to take hold.

Initially people are a bit lukewarm to a general election. The calls for this will grow though, all the while a consensus cannot be reached. The only way a consensus can be reached is if May stands up to the right of her party and offers a deal that allows for a customs union and back tracks on freedom of movement. That will see a split in the Tory party and it's destruction. It might sound crass, but for Labour, let it happen. They have got themselves into this mess, now they need to suffer the consequences.

Don't allow the media to portray this as anything other than that. May is not pursuing the national interest. Being objective neither is Corbyn. None of these talks on either front are about that. They are self preservation. Corbyn needs to safeguard Labour as best as possible. We are long passed the point where this Brexit stuff can now be rescued to not do damage. For me, the people who caused this mess should be allowed to face the full consequences of it.
And if Corbyn or Labour want to take the poison chalice of government well more fool them.

A 2nd Referendum is, in my opinion, unthinkable for moral, natural justice reasons. The first was a result of Tory Cameron bottling it so as you say they should bear the consequences...all of them.
A General Election will only shuffle (most of) the same pro and anti cards

Somebody...everybody has to cobble together a deal...or take the chance in seeing how a no deal 'k you johnny foreigner deal turns out.
I doubt 'they' have the guts to forego party and personal dogma and win this for the gipper, sorry country.
 
And if Corbyn or Labour want to take the poison chalice of government well more fool them.

A 2nd Referendum is, in my opinion, unthinkable for moral, natural justice reasons. The first was a result of Tory Cameron bottling it so as you say they should bear the consequences...all of them.
A General Election will only shuffle (most of) the same pro and anti cards

Somebody...everybody has to cobble together a deal...or take the chance in seeing how a no deal 'k you johnny foreigner deal turns out.
I doubt 'they' have the guts to forego party and personal dogma and win this for the gipper, sorry country.
More informed democracy is just SO undemocratic!
 
More informed democracy is just SO undemocratic!
Bit too deep for me that mert.
As far as I know the Referendum was binding, no matter if you didnt like the result, or it all turned to custard after.
To (mis) use the phrase - Brexit meant Brexit, for better or worse.
Brexit in haste, repent at leisure.
Thems the breaks
 
Bit too deep for me that mert.
As far as I know the Referendum was binding, no matter if you didnt like the result, or it all turned to custard after.
To (mis) use the phrase - Brexit meant Brexit, for better or worse.
Brexit in haste, repent at leisure.
Thems the breaks
No, it wasn't.
 
As far as I know the Referendum was binding, no matter if you didnt like the result, or it all turned to custard after.
To (mis) use the phrase - Brexit meant Brexit, for better or worse.
Brexit in haste, repent at leisure.
Thems the breaks

it was advisory, degs.

what went wrong are three things:

- Team Brexit had (and still have) no coherent plan if the referendum went their way.
- The (unelected) EU Presidents were/are being very difficult.
- The media have been on Project Fear overdrive, sowing even more division amongst the folk then there was before.
 
it was advisory, degs.

what went wrong are three things:

- Team Brexit had (and still have) no coherent plan if the referendum went their way.
- The (unelected) EU Presidents were/are being very difficult.
- The media have been on Project Fear overdrive, sowing even more division amongst the folk then there was before.
Jesus wept are we still on that?

Also (and tbh more accurately, apart from your 1st point, which is entirely true - the 17.4m who famously voted for Brexit didn't all vote for even approximately the same thing):
4. Withdrawing from the EU is fundamentally incompatible with the Good Friday Agreement, without Northern Ireland effectively ceasing to be part of the UK
5. Brexit (under anything but the VERY softest definition - at which point why bother as we'd have to accept the EU laws without having a strong hand in shaping them) is pretty much incompatible with the modern economy
 
it was advisory, degs.
maybe so

what went wrong are three things:...Only 3?

- Team Brexit had (and still have) no coherent plan if the referendum went their way.
- The (unelected) EU Presidents were/are being very difficult.
- The media have been on Project Fear overdrive, sowing even more division amongst the folk then there was before.
Everybody from May down seems, for what ever reason(s) to treat it as binding
I seem to remember writing very early on in this thread that a - thanks ladies and gents, well take it under advisement then thrash it out in parliament...which is what we pay them for anyway might be the way to go
Though in a parliamentary Everton That, we would have arrived at more or less the same point.
UK & UK politics That.
 
Jesus wept are we still on that?

Also (and tbh more accurately, apart from your 1st point, which is entirely true - the 17.4m who famously voted for Brexit didn't all vote for even approximately the same thing):
4. Withdrawing from the EU is fundamentally incompatible with the Good Friday Agreement, without Northern Ireland effectively ceasing to be part of the UK
5. Brexit (under anything but the VERY softest definition - at which point why bother as we'd have to accept the EU laws without having a strong hand in shaping them) is pretty much incompatible with the modern economy

Why still? Project Fear is ongoing. The media has a new angle every week: urging people to stockpile foods & meds as if we're in a war is the latest one.

Your points 4 & 5 have some validity, but they're not as absolute as you imply. See Norway, Switzerland for how to do point 5. Regarding the complicated quagmire that is the Northern Ireland question, we can only hope people keep their heads.
 
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