Current Affairs The Labour Party

[degsy]

Jesus wept are we still on that?

Also (and tbh more accurately, apart from your 1st point, which is entirely true - the 17.4m who famously voted for Brexit didn't all vote for even approximately the same thing):
4. Withdrawing from the EU is fundamentally incompatible with the Good Friday Agreement, without Northern Ireland effectively ceasing to be part of the UK
5. Brexit (under anything but the VERY softest definition - at which point why bother as we'd have to accept the EU laws without having a strong hand in shaping them) is pretty much incompatible with the modern economy

4. Withdrawing...etc good friday etc
Not too sure on that, seems it may have been hijacked pressganged into the argument by the ROI, as a stick to wack the English with...which is never a bad thing iver there

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

Why still? Project Fear is ongoing. The media has a new angle every week: urging people to stockpile foods & meds as if we're in a war is the latest one.

Your points 4 & 5 have some validity, but they're not as absolute as you imply. See Norway, Switzerland for how to do point 5. Regarding the complicated quagmire that is the Northern Ireland question, we can only hope people keep their heads.

What you define as "Project Fear" those on the inside of industries that would be affected by a no deal Brexit (myself included) call "telling it like it is"

As for Norway/Switzerland - that's all well and good, but there is limited appetite for that amongst Brexiteers. Also, regarding Norway/Switzerland, it's a false equivalence.

Neither of those countries' modern economies and supply lines were set up based on being full members of the EU. Ours has been. Withdrawing from that is a huge step, and using the example "well Norway and Switzerland manage fine" just isn't a realistic comparison.

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

4. Withdrawing...etc good friday etc
Not too sure on that, seems it may have been hijacked pressganged into the argument by the ROI, as a stick to wack the English with...which is never a bad thing iver there

No. The Good Friday agreement states that there must be regulatory alignment on either side of the border. This wasn't a problem when both were members of the EU, but after Brexit - it most certainly is a problem. A hard border - which would likely be necessary in a No Deal scenario - is also contraindicated in the GFA

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

Everybody from May down seems, for what ever reason(s) to treat it as binding.

Yes, it's called political and moral cowardice

And it's not "maybe so" by the way. It wasn't binding. One of the very very few things I've ever agreed with @dholliday on

 

[degsy]

Yes, it's called political and moral cowardice

And it's not "maybe so" by the way. It wasn't binding. One of the very very few things I've ever agreed with @dholliday on

Cowardice; spelt C, A, M, E, R, O, N.

 

[dholliday]

What you define as "Project Fear" those on the inside of industries that would be affected by a no deal Brexit (myself included) call "telling it like it is"

As for Norway/Switzerland - that's all well and good, but there is limited appetite for that amongst Brexiteers. Also, regarding Norway/Switzerland, it's a false equivalence.

Neither of those countries' modern economies and supply lines were set up based on being full members of the EU. Ours has been. Withdrawing from that is a huge step, and using the example "well Norway and Switzerland manage fine" just isn't a realistic comparison.

it's the only comparison we've got.

and telling it like it is = pushing in a certain direction. These problems become a self-fulfilling prophecy. May's rejected deal looked capable of avoiding these issues. Now we're back to square one (see point one).

Personally i agree with a second referendum, not least because the major figures behind Team Brexit appear to have very little idea what to do.

People voted Brexit for two main reasons:

- protect against uncontrolled mass migrations like what we saw in Europe in 15/16 (the timing of the Brexit vote was perhaps unfortunate for those supporting Remain)

- send a signal to EU to reform from within.

Both issues remain at the top of Brexiters' priorities.

To bring it back to Labour: if Corbyn seriously wants to lead government (and i'm beginning to have my doubts about that) then Labour should campaign for a clear-language 2nd-referendum which addresses some of the major questions with a clear plan in mind should Leave win again. Then with that campaign call for a GE (which should happen before a 2nd-referendum).

Labour have a chance here.

 

[dholliday]

One of the very very few things I've ever agreed with @dholliday on

yaaaay!

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

it's the only comparison we've got.

That doesn't really mean much if the comparison is irrelevant though.

and telling it like it is = pushing in a certain direction. These problems become a self-fulfilling prophecy. May's rejected deal looked capable of avoiding these issues. Now we're back to square one (see point one).

Yes, but if a car was rolling down a hill towards a cliff, we'd all be pushing in a certain direction too. Doesn't necessarily mean we'd be wrong.

- protect against uncontrolled mass migrations like what we saw in Europe in 15/16 (the timing of the Brexit vote was perhaps unfortunate for those supporting Remain)

Which Brexit will do very little to mitigate


EDIT: But tbf, we should probably stop hijacking the Labour thread with full on Brexit debate

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Apologies for going on, I just thought I'd add, just as the call for a General Election will gain traction as it starts to sink in that the Parliamentary Arithmetic doesn't work, so too will Corbyn's position he will talk if a no deal is taken off the table gain traction too.

There will be an enormous fear campaign placed upon no deal in the coming weeks. He has got his position in very early and established that he is the man to prevent No Deal. I think this will play well. As I say give it a couple of weeks.

He is vastly underrated as all things Parlimentarian, not sure if that's a product of tribalism, I don't like what you stand for therefore I don't like you full stop. Or the general dumbing down of politics where looking good with a smart sound bite will suffice these days. Probably a bit of both.

 

[dholliday]

That doesn't really mean much if the comparison is irrelevant though.


Yes, but if a car was rolling down a hill towards a cliff, we'd all be pushing in a certain direction too. Doesn't necessarily mean we'd be wrong.


Which Brexit will do very little to mitigate


EDIT: But tbf, we should probably stop hijacking the Labour thread with full on Brexit debate

we do disagree here on how valid comparisons can be and how far possibilities can stretch...we could go into minute detail but life is short lol

Labour & Brexit are totally intertwined as a topic right now so this thread will have a lot of talk like ours.

personally i've supported Corbyn to become PM ever since he became Labour leader (despite or even partly because of the media's anti-Corbyn propaganda). i just hope he really wants it, you know what i mean?

 

[tsubaki]

To bring it back to Labour: if Corbyn seriously wants to lead government (and i'm beginning to have my doubts about that) then Labour should campaign for a clear-language 2nd-referendum which addresses some of the major questions with a clear plan in mind should Leave win again. Then with that campaign call for a GE (which should happen before a 2nd-referendum).
Labour have a chance here.

A second referendum, especially one not on the May deal, is just kicking the can down the road though. If Labour get a GE then they should fight it on the basis that this Government has been utterly appalling and they've made the same mess of Brexit as they have over UC, Windrush, social housing, transport, university funding, dealing with personal debt, prisons, policing, the NHS, replacing infrastructure, the economy, job security, foreign policy, defence spending, cleaning up politics, tackling pollution and anything else you can think of.

Our politics is in crisis because our politicians are acting in ways that are opposite to what they should be doing - expressing confidence in governments they expressed no confidence in a month ago (and effectively the day before as well), calling for a second referendum when they know what the result is likely to be and who would be in charge of it, calling for cross-party talks that no party can be seen to compromise in, thinking a government defeat of 230 is survivable and doing mad things like suggesting "citizens assemblies" to solve this issue / be blamed for solving this issue.

Even this pretence that a Leave deal would be in the real sense of the word "acceptable" to the current Commons is a complete fiction, at least based on what most of them actually believe - if you gave them a completely free vote on Monday morning (ie: leave or remain without the effect of manifesto pledges, referendum pledges, Party whips, the antics of yellow-vested knobs outside their surgeries, looming gammon civil wars, what people say on Twitter or even angry QT audiences), at least 500 of them would vote Remain. They should have the courage to admit it, explain why, and for once act in their countrys - rather than their parties - interest.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

4. Withdrawing...etc good friday etc
Not too sure on that, seems it may have been hijacked pressganged into the argument by the ROI, as a stick to wack the English with...which is never a bad thing iver there

With respect that is absolute rubbish. The only reason Brexiteers come out with this nonsense is that it frustrates your desire for a clean break from the EU.

It appears that you want your own country to protect its interests yet complain when another one does the same, and invent stuff like that as a reason for doing so. The Irish government has a duty to protect the country's interests in the same way the UK's has, the main difference being that they are doing a much better job of it.

 

[degsy]

With respect that is absolute rubbish. The only reason Brexiteers come out with this nonsense is that it frustrates your desire for a clean break from the EU.

It appears that you want your own country to protect its interests yet complain when another one does the same, and invent stuff like that as a reason for doing so. The Irish government has a duty to protect the country's interests in the same way the UK's has, the main difference being that they are doing a much better job of it.

When anybody starts 'with respect'...well with respect you know how the rest of it goes

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

When anybody starts 'with respect'...well with respect you know how the rest of it goes

OK then, without respect you are talking through your backside.

 

[dholliday]

A second referendum, especially one not on the May deal, is just kicking the can down the road though. If Labour get a GE then they should fight it on the basis that this Government has been utterly appalling and they've made the same mess of Brexit as they have over UC, Windrush, social housing, transport, university funding, dealing with personal debt, prisons, policing, the NHS, replacing infrastructure, the economy, job security, foreign policy, defence spending, cleaning up politics, tackling pollution and anything else you can think of.

Our politics is in crisis because our politicians are acting in ways that are opposite to what they should be doing - expressing confidence in governments they expressed no confidence in a month ago (and effectively the day before as well), calling for a second referendum when they know what the result is likely to be and who would be in charge of it, calling for cross-party talks that no party can be seen to compromise in, thinking a government defeat of 230 is survivable and doing mad things like suggesting "citizens assemblies" to solve this issue / be blamed for solving this issue.

Even this pretence that a Leave deal would be in the real sense of the word "acceptable" to the current Commons is a complete fiction, at least based on what most of them actually believe - if you gave them a completely free vote on Monday morning (ie: leave or remain without the effect of manifesto pledges, referendum pledges, Party whips, the antics of yellow-vested knobs outside their surgeries, looming gammon civil wars, what people say on Twitter or even angry QT audiences), at least 500 of them would vote Remain. They should have the courage to admit it, explain why, and for once act in their countrys - rather than their parties - interest.

honestly i'd lose the gammon word, tsu. i do agree many appear to be acting in their party's interest, or even in their own little clique considering all the infighting. Theresa May excepted..she's deffo a bit weird like but i do think she's thinking about country before party.

personally i think Labour should focus on what it can offer, not on how bad the Tories are, if it is to win over floating voters.