Current Affairs The Labour Party

[Blue 1]

Never mind that Blair and Cameron are absolutely soaked in the blood of our servicemen. THEY WORE PROPER COATS.

 

[zzr45]

There was a list of things in that post, but briefly they would have to deal with the chaos that is the immigration system, they'd have to sort out access to housing and the decline in stable / secure employment, and they'd have to sort out various sectors of the economy (manufacturing especially) that have been in decline for years - all of which were blamed on the EU but were actually HMG's responsibility.

Then they would have to deal with the political fallout, not only in terms of the establishment effectively ignoring a referendum result but also (and especially) with regards to the way money flows into politics in the expectation that politics will do something in return (the scandals highlighted by the Guardian and OpenDemocracy are only the tip of the iceberg) and the role that the media is playing in our politics.

* obviously not in the sense of actually joining them

Let’s be honest though, how many of those are issues which go back decades (housing, immigration, decline in heavy manufacturing) and one of which is debatable. To pin them squarely on this government is odd. Again the influence money has on politics isn’t anything new either. Your insinuation is that it’s all the fault of this government and that doesn’t sit right.

Just to give you a hypothetical situation, you and your friends decide to take a trip down to the South. Your initial plan is to drive down, but oddly everyone’s car is kaput. The trains are on strike and you can’t afford to fly down. You’ll have to walk down. Do you still make that trip?

To say a referendum is being ignored is wrong, it was acknowledged and article 50 was triggered. We are now at a point where we are staring down the barrel of a gun with nothing like what the Leave campaign promised (which was actually nothing, there was no idea about how’d this would be achieved) another referendum to actually confirm if this country wants to put itself through this is a ‘are you really sure?’

Oddly, Corbyn can’t see the absolute opportunity to be the hero here. By pushing for a second referendum he probably pulls in more support for the Labour Party and could most likely force an early election. But, his childish contempt for the EU and desire to see the country on its knees before he comes in as the hero is the overriding thought process

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I think people are confusing the fact that it shouldn't matter, with the fact that we all know for some people it does matter. He could have avoided it quite easily, but for some reason chose not to. He must have known that it would generate headlines in certain papers, yet chose to wear it anyway. The question is why?

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

The coat thing I find fascinating in its own way because loads of people who are going out of their way to call him disrespectful are huge trump fans and he couldn’t make it to a service due to the weather .

You can understand why Trump dodged some part of rememberance because it was raining, raincoat or dont go! The latter was the best option.

 

[edge]

Let’s be honest though, how many of those are issues which go back decades (housing, immigration, decline in heavy manufacturing) and one of which is debatable. To pin them squarely on this government is odd. Again the influence money has on politics isn’t anything new either. Your insinuation is that it’s all the fault of this government and that doesn’t sit right.

Just to give you a hypothetical situation, you and your friends decide to take a trip down to the South. Your initial plan is to drive down, but oddly everyone’s car is kaput. The trains are on strike and you can’t afford to fly down. You’ll have to walk down. Do you still make that trip?

To say a referendum is being ignored is wrong, it was acknowledged and article 50 was triggered. We are now at a point where we are staring down the barrel of a gun with nothing like what the Leave campaign promised (which was actually nothing, there was no idea about how’d this would be achieved) another referendum to actually confirm if this country wants to put itself through this is a ‘are you really sure?’

Oddly, Corbyn can’t see the absolute opportunity to be the hero here. By pushing for a second referendum he probably pulls in more support for the Labour Party and could most likely force an early election. But, his childish contempt for the EU and desire to see the country on its knees before he comes in as the hero is the overriding thought process

how do you think that would go with the 57% of labour seats that voted leave?
Hardly a selling point in those areas and without those votes he wouldn't have any chance at all of ever getting into power, he has to tread carefully on the subject

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Whatever happened to Remain, "Referendum is not compatible with UK representative democracy also referendum is the favoured tools of dictators and fascists". Big fail....

It was foolish to ever consider referendum for such an important issue. If we have a second there will be a push for a third. And the uproar and vitriol for the definition of winning the second will drive the country further apart. We are going to have to sit with this result for a time and inch ourselves back in.

 

[zzr45]

how do you think that would go with the 57% of labour seats that voted leave?
Hardly a selling point in those areas and without those votes he wouldn't have any chance at all of ever getting into power, he has to tread carefully on the subject

How many of those 57% were lured in by the supposed 350m into the NHS, remaining trade deals cake and eat it scenario though?

 

[edge]

How many of those 57% were lured in by the supposed 350m into the NHS, remaining trade deals cake and eat it scenario though?

not enough to make it safe for labour to alienate them, there has been very little movement on how many would change there vote, both sides lied people made there own minds up which suited there own agenda.
It would still leave the problem of there wishes being overlooked by a party supposed to represent them not the north London cabal at the head of the party.
An already disenfranchised set of voters would just say fk it not worth voting for a party that ignore there wishes.
They are behind in the polls to a tory government that is a shambles, Corbyn is behind May in any poll you look at in who you want as pm 14% the last one I read, let that sink in behind to a woman the both remain /leavers/ DUP ect are all fed up with.
He cant afford to make a move it would end any slim chance he ever had of getting into power.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

not enough to make it safe for labour to alienate them, there has been very little movement on how many would change there vote, both sides lied people made there own minds up which suited there own agenda.
It would still leave the problem of there wishes being overlooked by a party supposed to represent them not the north London cabal at the head of the party.
An already disenfranchised set of voters would just say fk it not worth voting for a party that ignore there wishes.
They are behind in the polls to a tory government that is a shambles, Corbyn is behind May in any poll you look at in who you want as pm 14% the last one I read, let that sink in behind to a woman the both remain /leavers/ DUP ect are all fed up with.
He cant afford to make a move it would end any slim chance he ever had of getting into power.

I take umbrage with this as it denies any sort of responsibility being taken and assumes equivalence. To use an American example, it's like saying because Clinton said some things that were untrue, this is equivalent to Trump telling multiple lies each and every day. As has been said on here many times before, it is difficult to forecast the future, but there is a huge difference between forecasting things with the best evidence available, and then it turns out to be wrong, and forecasting things that no one really believes. You might well accuse me of bias, but I firmly believe that most claims by the remain side fall into the former camp, but sadly too many from the leave side fall into the latter. That's a whole different kettle of fish imo.

 

[edge]

I take umbrage with this as it denies any sort of responsibility being taken and assumes equivalence. To use an American example, it's like saying because Clinton said some things that were untrue, this is equivalent to Trump telling multiple lies each and every day. As has been said on here many times before, it is difficult to forecast the future, but there is a huge difference between forecasting things with the best evidence available, and then it turns out to be wrong, and forecasting things that no one really believes. You might well accuse me of bias, but I firmly believe that most claims by the remain side fall into the former camp, but sadly too many from the leave side fall into the latter. That's a whole different kettle of fish imo.

Bruce it was two way, emergency budget, mass job losses , do you want to put your neighbour out of work, ect the undertones of you were a uneducated racist if you wanted to leave, the whole project fear, government pro remain leaflet, the make up of who could vote in the election, gibraltar ect , expats who had long since left these shores, even citizens of of Eire who lived here were allowed to vote all designed to get a result that never came to the surprise of those who set it up.
Both sides lied it a fact , the reasons for voting out are many fold plenty of studies on it, from immigration, to low pay to people that just felt disenfranchised and wanted to be heard for a change, its a lazy statement to say a bus advert swung a referendum and totally ignored the reasons /fears of those that voted that way.
Do you really think boris outside a bus really holds any sway with voters in sunderland or knowsley that voted out and are very anti tory
Its a complex subject that has been taken over by a load of soundbites, it was the old against the young ect , i haven't heard anybody since the vote from either side actually say how they are going to get this country united again and give disenfranchised a stake in there country or indeed a voice.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Bruce it was two way, emergency budget, mass job losses , do you want to put your neighbour out of work, ect the undertones of you were a uneducated racist if you wanted to leave, the whole project fear, government pro remain leaflet, the make up of who could vote in the election, gibraltar ect , expats who had long since left these shores, even citizens of of Eire who lived here were allowed to vote all designed to get a result that never came to the surprise of those who set it up.
Both sides lied it a fact , the reasons for voting out are many fold plenty of studies on it, from immigration, to low pay to people that just felt disenfranchised and wanted to be heard for a change, its a lazy statement to say a bus advert swung a referendum and totally ignored the reasons /fears of those that voted that way.
Do you really think boris outside a bus really holds any sway with voters in sunderland or knowsley that voted out and are very anti tory
Its a complex subject that has been taken over by a load of soundbites, it was the old against the young ect , i haven't heard anybody since the vote from either side actually say how they are going to get this country united again and give disenfranchised a stake in there country or indeed a voice.

From what I understand, the projections made in the leaflet were made by the civil service. From my experience of them, they may be many things, but they don't tend to work in propaganda. The projections were made on the basis of leaving the EU on the morning of the vote, which as we're seeing now with discussions around leaving with no deal, the implications are pretty stark. It also tends to be glossed over that the morning after the vote, the Bank of England pumped billions of printed money into the economy to prop up a pound that had plummeted. Hopefully we won't even get close to a no deal scenario, but you have to remember that many prominent leave campaigners wanted just that.

For the record, I wouldn't say that the bus decided things, but also it's been an ongoing bone of contention on here that (I think) every single attempt to actually understand both what the vote itself meant, and who those who voted leave are, has been poo poo'ed on account of not asking all 17 million leave voters. If leave and remain sides of this are to be bridged, then it perhaps helps to understand each other, but there appears to have been no willingness on the leave side to do that, in large part because either they don't represent the findings that were returned, or they don't like the findings that were returned.

 

[orchard]

From what I understand, the projections made in the leaflet were made by the civil service. From my experience of them, they may be many things, but they don't tend to work in propaganda. The projections were made on the basis of leaving the EU on the morning of the vote, which as we're seeing now with discussions around leaving with no deal, the implications are pretty stark. It also tends to be glossed over that the morning after the vote, the Bank of England pumped billions of printed money into the economy to prop up a pound that had plummeted. Hopefully we won't even get close to a no deal scenario, but you have to remember that many prominent leave campaigners wanted just that.

For the record, I wouldn't say that the bus decided things, but also it's been an ongoing bone of contention on here that (I think) every single attempt to actually understand both what the vote itself meant, and who those who voted leave are, has been poo poo'ed on account of not asking all 17 million leave voters. If leave and remain sides of this are to be bridged, then it perhaps helps to understand each other, but there appears to have been no willingness on the leave side to do that, in large part because either they don't represent the findings that were returned, or they don't like the findings that were returned.

DON'T forget the government were already doing that and Stirling was already tanking because of qe..

 

[Bruce Wayne]

DON'T forget the government were already doing that and Stirling was already tanking because of qe..

I suspect that was a part of government thinking. Even if Brexit went as smooth as smooth can be, it would still cost a large chunk of money at a time when public finances were still in deficit. Whilst change often comes when you have no real alternative, I'm sure most would agree that it's much better to do so from a position of strength. I'm not sure that applies to Britain right now.

 

[Steve0]

not enough to make it safe for labour to alienate them, there has been very little movement on how many would change there vote, both sides lied people made there own minds up which suited there own agenda.
It would still leave the problem of there wishes being overlooked by a party supposed to represent them not the north London cabal at the head of the party.
An already disenfranchised set of voters would just say fk it not worth voting for a party that ignore there wishes.
They are behind in the polls to a tory government that is a shambles, Corbyn is behind May in any poll you look at in who you want as pm 14% the last one I read, let that sink in behind to a woman the both remain /leavers/ DUP ect are all fed up with.
He cant afford to make a move it would end any slim chance he ever had of getting into power.

Thing is you can spin the poll results the other way.
Wages up, unemployment down, concerted plot to paint Labour as anti-Semitic, corbyn mocked and pilloried everyday by the rightist cabal and STILL leading in some polls.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Corbyn is behind May in any poll you look at in who you want as pm 14% the last one I read, let that sink in behind to a woman the both remain /leavers/ DUP ect are all fed up with.

Thats very common down years for the opposistion leader to be behind the current PM, nothing new in that.