Current Affairs The General Election

[Blue 1]

I don't judge anybody's private life, none of my business. His government was something of a disaster as he was trying to hold together a wildly divided cabinet in the midst of an economic crisis. I didn't say he led a good government, I said he was a decent and principled man. Solid mid-table of post war PMs, for me.

He had an affair with Edwina Currie.

How are the two things compatible?

3 million unemployed on his watch, although in fairness he did get it down. Rough sleeping at record levels they've not reached again until now. Black Wednesday, privatisation of BR...

 

[Disgruntledgoat]

He had an affair with Edwina Currie.

How are the two things compatible?

I'm not into judging people's private lives. Feel free to disagree.

 

[Black Belt Jones]

£10k doesn't seem like a huge amount to spend is more what I was getting at. As you say people will have to retrain, especially with automation coming up. Will 10k really cover it for most people, plus any you might spend to enhance the career you're currently in?

It's not a huge sum by any means, when you look at how much a degree costs for example, but it could have impact. Admittedly more for people who are already skilled and educated and are looking to fill in a gap or learn something new. I think the track record for these sort of initiatives in retraining heavy industry workers, say, who have been laid off and have to start from scratch almost in their 40s / 50s is really bad. Coal miner to web developer doesn't often happen in reality.

 

[Black Belt Jones]

Miliband lacked the capacity for strategic thought as can be seen in two key decisions. Firstly, his plan to cap utility prices on a given date, in which he totally failed to grasp that every company would simply increase their prices by the forecast amount for the period of the freeze plus some extra for security
Secondly, allowing anyone with a spare 3 quid to vote in labour's leadership election.

The 3 quid vote only looks stupid in hindsight, though - was anyone at the time saying this is a reckless, silly move? If you'd told anyone ten years ago that Jeremy Corbyn would be leading the labour party, with John McDonnell (!!) pulling the strings, they'd be ringing you an ambulance. It was a total left field meteor strike.

 

[Disgruntledgoat]

The 3 quid vote only looks stupid in hindsight, though - was anyone at the time saying this is a reckless, silly move? If you'd told anyone ten years ago that Jeremy Corbyn would be leading the labour party, with John McDonnell (!!) pulling the strings, they'd be ringing you an ambulance. It was a total left field meteor strike.

Good punnage.

Although, there were commentators at the time speculating that it could lead to entryism. Fraser Nelson and Andrew Rawnsley, as I recall.

 

[davids]

Milliband's time looking more and more like a colossal missed opportunity to rebuild the party, in hindsight. The man himself was always an iffy choice to put before the electorate, but he could have at least got the party moving back left in a clear, strategic direction that would have completely marginalised JC and his band of time-wasters.
It seemed like a really confused opposition from my recollection (Miliband's), didn't resolve the issue of taking on big strategic themes versus the tactics of trying to beat the Tories over meat and potato issues. Pretty ineffective and created the environment for JC and McDonell to take charge.

Should have been the other way around. Mc Donald was the ideal choice for me.

 

[Blue 1]

I'm not into judging people's private lives. Feel free to disagree.

It would be less bad if it wasn't at the same time as the Tories were pushing their odious "back to basics" campaign.

 

[Disgruntledgoat]

It would be less bad if it wasn't at the same time as the Tories were pushing their odious "back to basics" campaign.

I agree with that.

 

[zzr45]

I've doen a bit of canvassing, and what I get the sense of is complete disbelief towards all politicians. It's an ugly mood at present. I think there's is culpability on all sides. I know I got some stick the other week for saying about how well Farage does, but one thing I think he does well is come across as a pretty reasonable bloke who seems relatively down to earth. It may all be a lie (though having known people who have met him they say he's actually very personable) but it shows just how little respect we have left for politicians.

I'll throw another name in their, again not someone I agree with, and someone who was widely condemned as a joke PM, but John Major is another level to the current crop of Tories in terms of ability, dignity and respect. A lad from an ordinary background who did exceptionally well for himself, but believed in doing it the hard way rather than essentially trying to cheat to get where you want on the back of the school you went to.

As for Labour, I agree. My partner can't stand Raynor, I like her but think it's much too soon. There is a train of thought for Labour that thinks it's problems are resolved if they get someone with a northern accent leading them. I'm not convinced on that and feel the problems probably go a little deeper.

A big part of the problem is there is a battle within a battle happening within Labour. On the continent that battle is happening outside of SD parties (you think of Die Linke/SPD, Left Bloc/SD, PSD/Podemos, Syriza/Pasok, Melanchon/PS etc). The difficulty in Labour is it is happening within the organisation, and there is a legitimate argument as to who really owns the franchise and who the party belongs too. The unions, the members or the PLP? I'm not sure any of them are really willing to back down, or alternatively any have the willingness and capability to provide some lead.

I am very open to the idea that Labour should have a more moderate leader, but there is a question as to what "moderate" means in the contemporary context? I'm not sure it's an easy answer, but my instinct tells me re-hashing aspects of what Blair did in government as seems to be proposed isn't a massively satisfactory answer. That's probably the circle the PLP have to square if they want to be in a position where they can credibly lead again.

Blair answered that. He was then very good at communicating it through the party and ultimately to the wider populace. If you were going to learn anything from Blair they could do a lot worse than starting with the above. Serious political answers to concrete questions, as opposed to a 2nd rate re-enactment group.

It’s funny really, it seems now that the leaders of both parties are in many ways living embodiments of what the supporters of those parties want. It means that the moderator voices like Starmer/Stewart etc probably don’t have a cat in hells chance of becoming leaders, but they are people who would appeal to non party voters.

There’s no easy answer really, we badly need change in politics but the way the two parties are means it actually isn’t likely to happen. As you say Labour might need to blink and change to something that appeals more to those outside the party.

For me, that would be someone who wants to push the bottom up without the revolutionary dramatics, stop framing stuff as class warfare as such. Someone that promotes gradual change rather than forcing it all through at once.

 

[Jebus_lives]

I work a 4 day week. It's brilliant.

 

[Blues Harp]

It’s funny really, it seems now that the leaders of both parties are in many ways living embodiments of what the supporters of those parties want. It means that the moderator voices like Starmer/Stewart etc probably don’t have a cat in hells chance of becoming leaders, but they are people who would appeal to non party voters.

There’s no easy answer really, we badly need change in politics but the way the two parties are means it actually isn’t likely to happen. As you say Labour might need to blink and change to something that appeals more to those outside the party.

For me, that would be someone who wants to push the bottom up without the revolutionary dramatics, stop framing stuff as class warfare as such. Someone that promotes gradual change rather than forcing it all through at once.

Unfortuately, a lot of the so called moderates within the PLP wouldn't know a working class person if they tripped over them.

 

[catcherintherye]

Milliband's time looking more and more like a colossal missed opportunity to rebuild the party, in hindsight. The man himself was always an iffy choice to put before the electorate, but he could have at least got the party moving back left in a clear, strategic direction that would have completely marginalised JC and his band of time-wasters.
It seemed like a really confused opposition from my recollection (Miliband's), didn't resolve the issue of taking on big strategic themes versus the tactics of trying to beat the Tories over meat and potato issues. Pretty ineffective and created the environment for JC and McDonell to take charge.

Yes I agree with a lot of that. Miliband actually spoke of trying to do much of what Corbyn actually did. He wanted to open the party up, be radical and break with aspects of what had gone before under New Labour. Unfortunately he was completely tame in terms of policies and stood as a bland continuation of what had gone before.

One important point to note though, was the Blairite cabal at the heart of the Labour Party attempted to completely undermine Miliband in a similar (though lesser) way to what they have done for Corbyn. There were the same accusations of not showing enough respect to their achievements in governments, the same overtures that he needs to reach middle England, the same stuff that he wasn't strong enough on anti-semitism, the same belief that he was no pro-war or Atlanticist enough. They threw the strop of all strops when David Miliband lost and never stopped to consider where the frustration towards them had emerged from.

That's what unites most of them. I have to say a section of Labour MP's are some of the most despicable people you will ever meet. I would honestly take most Tories over them. They are the most unprincipled, self obsessed, narcissistic group of people. They are seemingly incapable of any degree of reflexivity. They believe they have a divine right to rule, both the Labour Party and then the country. When the are told they can't, rather than looking at why, they become vicious against those who have delivered them the message.

Corbyn for them is akin to a breathing, walking reminder of their own inadequacies and why they simply cannot make peace with him.

At some point had they have stopped and checked themselves, maybe considered that promising to continue austerity in 2015 (or extend it against the poorest as Liz Kendall wanted) then it might have allowed them to have made a pivot and re-branded themselves as something worthwhile and interesting to move forward on.

Instead we have a cabal of entitled people who believe the Labour members/voters owe all of our success to them.

A small part of me hopes the get what they want, and a Kendallesque person in charge after this election, as they'd be heading straight to Pasofikation.

 

[catcherintherye]

Miliband lacked the capacity for strategic thought as can be seen in two key decisions. Firstly, his plan to cap utility prices on a given date, in which he totally failed to grasp that every company would simply increase their prices by the forecast amount for the period of the freeze plus some extra for security
Secondly, allowing anyone with a spare 3 quid to vote in labour's leadership election.

On the 2nd point this was not really his idea (more Harriet Harman and had long since been a Blairite idea).

What you have to appreciate, is to the Blairite mind, working class people are essentially thick, ignorant, racist, sexist, homophobic but want public services to be paid for. Thats their stereotype and understanding of their core vote. They mix that with middle class voters who want low taxes.

Their view was, if we allow ordinary voters to sign up, they will be far to the right of not just the trade union block vote but also the PLP and will continue to drag it in their direction.

What they actually found, was that ordinary Labour supporters are far to the left of the party. The union block vote was utilised not as a mechanism to keep a degree of socialist thinking in the organisation but to prevent mass outbreaks of a kind of socialism from below mixed with demands for democratic control over policy.

 

[abelard]

There's more than one way to win the debate... ; )

 

[Blue 1]

Bloody brass neck of Swinson to bewail the state of the welfare system after voting for every single cut to it.